I have a PhD from Harvard + 10 years industry experience and I can not find a job for the life of me in North America. I have had several offers to work in China

What about the job situation of PhD in Economics and Business Administration in Canada.

Oh yeah, didn't get scholarships either, had to eat at the food bank to get through university

"Therefore, I am stuck with a B.Sc.Chem degree- the most useless accreditation that one can imagine"

I ended up making 90K with my BSc chem and got to live in places like San Diego, made a lot of PhD's look stupid over the years too. Education is just the start, in the end it's up to you what you do with it.

I consider my "worthless" education in chemistry, to be the most valuable thing I've ever owned. Not only did it make me a lot of money, but it's now going to fuel a business that will make me even more money.

PhD's make more money - if they have a job. They also go through long stretches of job hunting. I've been a non-PhD scientist in Dx for over 35 years and in all that time have been unemployed for about 2 weeks. Our paychecks may not be as big but over a lifetime, we bring home a lot more of them.

I can not recommend a PhD education to anyone who wants to use it to find a job. But calm down, the boat is sinking simply because there are too many of us "technical-scientist types". Ten thousand PhDs come to the USA every year from overseas. Twice as many graduates with B.S. degrees in chemistry, physics or whatever are turned out annually by American universities. Since you are not licensed professionals like physicians or plumbers,.. anybody off the street can do your job with some on-the-job training and if they can't; corporations will hire some guru for $250/hr and then dump him/her after they get what they need. We scientists have lost our control over the profession by narrow-minded arrogance, and intellectual bickering between scientists.
The era of scientific-prestige is long-gone and there's no "shortage" of scientists and engineers as your government likes to suggest. They're selling you a banana, and you, me and every other brainiac stuck on experimental investigation will spend most of our careers wasting time and money in the research/scientific bureacractic system. Nuclear physics; recombinant DNA technology, and now nanoscience and technology...its all a racket. If you are lucky enough to catch-a-wave; ride it for awhile; make some money and start your own company; find something to sell to dummies or seniors on a fixed income and call it a day.

I hold a degree in Chemistry from the University of British Columbia (Yes, Canada). I worked my a$$ off for four years, receiving numerous scholarships along the way for my academic achievements, and graduated in the top 10% of my faculty. I originally chose Science as a means to Medicine, but decided three years in that I may not possess the passion for it that I had originally anticipated. Therefore, I am stuck with a B.Sc.Chem degree- the most useless accreditation that one can imagine.

I have applied to countless companies seeking "bench top" scientists, and have yet to hear a single reply. I am becoming desperate, and thinking that my years of hard study have been in vain.

I am 28 years old, and am considering going back to school for anything applied- something that will get me a job when I complete it. I am even considering studying for the MCAT and trying to get into Med School.

Someone please tell me a success story that started with a degree in Chem...

I'll second that. While getting your degree, you reproduce the experiments of the greats in your field and, if you're getting a MS, creating some original science. You hit the job market thinking of all the interesting science you'll be doing in a lab that looks straight out of CSI. You get that first job and you're disillusioned to find yourself in some low budget company making buffers, running routine assays, and doing other scut work. If you don't have management potential, after several years it will sink in that's all you'll be doing for the rest of your working life.Depressing. Believe me, I know.

MS = BS to most recruiters and organizations. Its stupid; but they would rather have PhDs doing anything taht requires thought.

ANY other industry would love an MS, but Biotech devalues it :(

your ego..?

Education and money are two different concepts now a days...each one at a time.......becoz there is more educated labour then anyone else now a days ..Suppose if i wish to construct a house and i advertise for labour......more managers and supervisors apply then layman to actually work by taking brinks up.i am from india.......BA psychology,then MBA marketing .still unemployed in india by choice

actually truth always lie between the line..not here or that side....yeah today is bad time in western countries but still they have good life as compared to other poverty stricken life...if not so then why don they immigrate to these countries

A degree assure that one is qualified to perform in a specific function. A degree does not assure you that a place will be waiting for you. More and more people are getting degrees these days, to the point that it will not mean anything soon. If you have the opportunity to educate yourself, go for it, but do not jeopardize everything you have for it. It is not worth it you can never enjoy what you worked for.

This thread has become worthless--only a few high school grads now posting and giving advice about obtaining PhD's.

twisted by tricks:
Only had you actually wished me luck...

Good luck with those windmills, Dr. Quixote. Come back with a report after 15 years and let me know how successful your noble, full frontal charge went. I'm sure it will come out MUCH differently than the thousands of times in-your-face idealism has been tried before in Pharma.

integrity is dense. feeling happy and light?

"I do truths and willing to pay the price for it."

I guess you have to do something with all that density.

"The real trick is to make everyone think you are pursuing their economic or philospohical interests while you pursue basic truths."

I don't do tricks, I do truths and willing to pay the price for it.
As to your recommendation not to do a PhD; sorry I already did it, I am poor and do not regret it. The situation with tricks has gotten out of hand and whoever walks this slippery path makes life more difficult for people who don't. If people like you just refused to do tricks, if all scientists put their foot down, we would not be in this situation. I seek and profess truth, being a scientist was just a consequence.

"If you have a Ph.D., hide your head in shame, then head right out and find yourself a job in Pharma R&D. You'll fit right in with the rest of the ignorant and arrogant pukes who run the show right now."

You will never run a show with the exception of a circus, but then again with your attitude, you may even be disqualified from that. There is absolutely no shame in becoming successful and having a PhD that is indicative of being a good scientist. It is the MBA-types that have ultimately run pharma and have ruined the science for everyone. This is generally not the case with smaller biotechs and that is why they are more innovative and will eventually surpass the outdated pharmas that are spending themselves into extinction.

"You are lucky that u can run ur lab that way."

ANYONE can run their lab that way, in Pharma OR in Academia. It's just matter of will and cleverness.

The key is to subtly subvert the system in order to save it. I'll agree that it is probably more difficult to acquire funding to pursue interesting and important basic science, at least out in the open. The real trick is to make everyone think you are pursuing their economic or philospohical interests while you pursue basic truths. Today their interests would include the practical, applied science demanded by both industry and political zealots from both sides of the spectrum.

This sleight of hand is a centuries-old tactic for paying the bills in science. If you're not clever and determined enough, or can't obfuscate well enough to get the funding you need while pursuing your passion, I recommend you don't pursue a Ph.D.

"we will linger in the cold and we will fight. Do it!"

please, don't discourage this fellow to such a hard life. If he or she wants to walk your path of sorrow by getting a phd and suffer for it, let it come without such (admirable) but propaganda nevertheless.

I think you have enough input from this page. The picture is that it is pretty risky but it is for a good cause. It is really up to you, no need to be hero. The romantic age has passed by more than a century now. There are no marches and parades for "warriors" or scientists. Just look at them, they come back maimed and broken and the wealthy get wealthier and whine about, go forbid, their tax cuts getting expired. No one cares about your heroism and there are people who do, the world is big. Do what makes you happy.

stifle not sniffle I meant sorry :)
The question is not if you will have work or not, the question is if "do you have the constitution to go as far as" is needed to contribute. Why grad school? Because just like Matrix that's where we meet, you and I inside the matrix. There we begin our fight. You will not find people like me in any high concentration anywhere else you go. You will find us in one place in grad school. We meet and become friends. So do a PhD, not for jobs, do it to find the other members of resistance. The sellouts will get the good jobs and go back to their feeding tubes and become hot shots, we will linger in the cold and we will fight. Do it!

"Studying arcane processes like "how does brain dream" is the ONLY way we're going to generate new therapeutic approaches. Until you learn that, stay the hell away from my lab."

You are right but increasingly the bureaucratic review process for grants requires specific research goals and methods to achieve it. It is absurd for discovery to be discovered ahead of time. You are lucky that u can run ur lab that way.

Great enterprises fall under the weight of bureaucracies. First they burn you alive, then they join you but transliterate their dogmatic beliefs to processes. They take over the process and kill your soul. That is the research educational complex. Science will end up again with independently wealthy, the cold hungry resistance. That is precisely what has happened, the ones that don't get with the program will be poor for a long time but persist and few will finally make a blow for the first. Science is once again a heroic effort. Should you do it? Would you go to war if your country needed you? Make no mistake, you do science, you are going to war. A slow motion destruction of your body and livelihood.
But you could choose to live and get a job and family and house and be happy. As for me, I am working with a friend on a new formulation of quantum mechanics and QED, one that will change our understanding of the world. We get by somehow. We will not allow the high priests of the church of granting agencies (in physics they call them "String theorists" more like they hang you with it) to sniffle our spirit. We are heir to Plato, we profess the truth and we seek to discover. So there is a red pill and a blue pill, you take the blue pill or you go with us to the battlefields of reality, there you might die but you will join Socrates.

"We know enough about biological systems for basics so most of the average scientists like me will be paid only if they work towards finding cure NOT How does brain dream."

If you're thinking of getting a Ph.D., stop. If you have a Ph.D., hide your head in shame, then head right out and find yourself a job in Pharma R&D. You'll fit right in with the rest of the ignorant and arrogant pukes who run the show right now. See, you and they think we are all very, very smart, and that we can somehow plan our way into innovation. You are all morons, and are exceeded in your idiocy only by the shareholders of big Pharma, who also think you can engineer breakthroughs if you just spend your money more wisely..

Studying arcane processes like "how does brain dream" is the ONLY way we're going to generate new therapeutic approaches. Until you learn that, stay the hell away from my lab.

"For those who oppose getting a PhD, what is the alternative you propose? "

Learn to drive a truck. It's faster, cheaper, and good drivers are always in demand.

"In the united states, science and engineering is no loner a good career choice for people who are smart enough and determined enough to get a PhD.

WTF.....This makes no sense, loner?"

It makes no sense? It makes sense to the declining number Americans choosing not to do it, to the point that DARPA is worried. You are obviously not a PhD; we might be poor but we learn to make arguments not profanities followed by personal insults.

I am starting as a principal scientist with one of the well known big pharma? (just ended 6 years of postdoc)

I am turning 40 this year ?

Am i in for a tragic path of career ?

Seeing a lot of resumes from PhDs for entry level - BS + 0-2 years positions. They go straight into the garbage. Even if we decide we want one of them, they'll turn the offer down on salary. They may be unemployed, but they still think they're worth more.

In the united states, science and engineering is no loner a good career choice for people who are smart enough and determined enough to get a PhD.

WTF.....This makes no sense, loner?

Don't do it! You will regret it with high probability. Life is more important than science or degrees and PhD is not good for your health and life unless you are independently wealthy or clearly a genius.

I was searching craigs list today and stumbled on a listing for lab associate...standard lab opportunity,but the funny thing was a post script at the end "No Phds please, you are over qualified" too funny.

In the united states, science and engineering is no loner a good career choice for people who are smart enough and determined enough to get a PhD. That is the key. A medical doctor, an IP lawyer, MBA combined with a technical degree....these are better choices.
For those who think we oppose the PhD for no reason; the evidence is there already in the declining number of American Phds. That has happened in part because of labor arbitrage but also changes in R&D structure and the education industry's cost cutting (temporary positions etc.)
Still if you work with an influential professor from top 5 schools who helps her students to find jobs, as I said before, PhD is not a bad choice. If you are passionate about it and has that kind of advisor, do it. Otherwise, it is foolish. No one without a PhD want to hire someone who by default is superior to him and if he has PhD and is not your close friend, he has a pipeline to his own and will not hire you. Few jobs, and connection trumps talent. besides the academic and friendship, there is now a growing ethnic network as well. Chinese hire Chinese etc.
Finally my advice: Open your eyes ans see the world for what it is, then and only do a PhD and know the huge risk. I really do not mean to scare you but it really is risky.

As a masters with ~ 15 years in the pharma industry in chemistry I would recommend:
Get a PhD if you are in the top 15% and can get into a world renowned group at a prestigious university.
If you are more average and will only be able to get into a somewhat known group, don't get a PhD. You will have a hard time finding a job and will have to go though 2-3 postdocs and still struggle to find a job.
In that case get a Master. You would probably be in the top 15% of none PhD and will have job opportunities. You may reach a ceiling though and not be able to move up the career ladder after 10 years (especially in big pharma).
I hope this helps. Good luck!

"I am a PhD in electrical engineering, MS in physics and MS in applied mathematics BS in electrical engineering, BS is computer science. I scored perfect on quantitative SAT, almost perfect on GRE. I think I know something and want to guide this person.

But, I did not know these blogs whee you guys talk, sorry I bugged in; I thought the question was general.

But from what you say, well yeah if you guess right and move right, you'll make it. It's like NFL"

Ok, so your an electrician, I understand, and if you want to work in the NFL I would suggest you try your local. Sometimes they get jobs at the stadiums. Good Luck in your job search

For those who oppose getting a PhD, what is the alternative you propose? Another career perhaps? Generally BS degrees now lead to tech positions and MS degrees have limited upward mobility.

I vote no (I have a phd, unless your advisor is well connected and has a history of placing his students with good jobs in industry and academia; AND gives a damn about you, rare)

I just came across this question by accident. I am a PhD in electrical engineering, MS in physics and MS in applied mathematics BS in electrical engineering, BS is computer science. I scored perfect on quantitative SAT, almost perfect on GRE. I think I know something and want to guide this person.

But, I did not know these blogs whee you guys talk, sorry I bugged in; I thought the question was general.

But from what you say, well yeah if you guess right and move right, you'll make it. It's like NFL, you might make it and you will tell people it's great. As I said before the issue is moot; in practice Americans have voted with their feet and do not get Phds. One gets an idea from these posts too. It is economic reality; it is hard and unpleasant. You want to risk making it to NFL, who am I to tell you not to? Just don't believe politicians that there is a shortage, there is a glut. At least I hope you agree with that, must be true in your field too. I am out, "talk amongst yourselves :)

For what we do and they did, they are pretty cheap. That's the truth.
I am all for importing Fermi. Yes not 20,000 ms and phd every year. no. My father was an immigrant and a great scientist. I have nothing against them.

You blame American people for no good reason. Let me explain. Corporations have found many ways to increase wealth for the shareholders. Some are legitimate, some are not (such as moving R&D and American IP over to Asia, such as lowering the wages of phds etc by labor arbitrage) The effect is that for the most part (at least until Asia catches up infra structurally) mush of this wealth enters US economy. It's just pure money from keeping wages down from labor outside, from downsizing.... it's just money, lots of money. So service and finance grow around it. My point is that the shift is not cultural, it is directly economic. It was inevitable. do you see?

Again you are obviously not a Phd nor a scientist. We are not gods. who knows how the world evolves in a decade? During cold war, control was hot. Then suddenly it ended. Did you know? could we know? Then funds dried up for that field. Life is more complex than you think. It also depends on government immigration policies. In the 90s US imported massively from Russia. Now China is taking back. DARPA wants to train for this, then terrorism hence say graphs and cyber then war on terror is suddenly over then....hot, not hot, hot...why? why put yourself in that position.
But then you did not did you? you are smart after all :)

--------------------

I am a PhD in neuroscience. We are on Pharma blog so please pick examples in life sciences' field. I do not understand why 'Unemployed Grumpy' Life Scientists :) will take examples from war on terror to make a point about their unemployment. (Although war on terror will have new type of funding for biologists that never existed:))...

10 years ago cloning a gene was hot and now it is not. I knew it when i started my PhD that if i did not learn more than cloning and sequencing genes I will be out so I focused more on functional genomics. Now after 10 years times are changing and we know that in hard times and scarce funding, no one is going to give me money to study consciousness if i am NOT THE BEST (I am not), so I am focusing more and more on neurodegeneration/Alzheimer etc. Because 10 years from now it is the translational research that is going to dominate even in academia. We know enough about biological systems for basics so most of the average scientists like me will be paid only if they work towards finding cure NOT How does brain dream. For that new technologies are emerging (or have emerged) High throughput screening etc that will require me to learn more many times crossing the fields. If i do not then 10 years from now if I have no Idea how does computer analyze a complex image (or even know that it can), I have no idea what kind of statistics is must for high throughput analysis, I will be out.

What advantage did we have? Before 70s, out advantage was that we were few. We could change, relearn, keep our job. How many people can learn quantum mechanics or VLSI? but the university and industry started mass importation of labor and increased the supply by many folds. Now we no longer have the only advantage we had. It is obvious from what you wrote that you do no have a phd, do you?

============

Good point. But unfortunately does not have a solution. America has been a leader in nourishing the 'culture of money' in this world. By % US will have many more number of people who make their livelihood just by trading in stock market (Without making a real contribution to society, because AS LONG AS YOU MAKE MONEY YOU ARE FINE).

It is one thing that we say no job is bad, but it is another when a high school student thinks opening a line of pizzeria because it will be more profitable than going to college to learn what education means. It is always money money money money....This is the culture that has generated an Artifact in society called Sales/Marketing/MBAs . Now professional created by this cultures reach top posts most of the time. BUT All they care about is MONEY. If it makes money to cut on research = let us do it. If it makes money to send jobs overseas = Let us do it. If it makes money to lobby government for not banning marketing prescription drugs = let us do it.

These people have grown up thinking about money. This is how they defines quality of the job. Now problem is not because Americans are more expensive to hire. Problem is that Americans are not the only one who can do the job and these MONEY MAKING MINDS are exploiting this to make money.

USA was a strong proponent of globalization when American products were flooding Asian markets. Local companies were crying blood in front of American toys and tools and US was telling them globalization is the future so embrace it. NOW all of a sudden when US has started losing on the name of globalization you call well educated sincere hard working students coming from Asia - Cheap Labor ?? Majority of the Nobel Prize winners are Americans but very few of them born and trained in America. So PLEASE STOP CALLING FOREIGN PhDs/Post Docs CHEAP labor. You insult their intellect.

Again you are obviously not a Phd nor a scientist. We are not gods. who knows how the world evolves in a decade? During cold war, control was hot. Then suddenly it ended. Did you know? could we know? Then funds dried up for that field. Life is more complex than you think. It also depends on government immigration policies. In the 90s US imported massively from Russia. Now China is taking back. DARPA wants to train for this, then terrorism hence say graphs and cyber then war on terror is suddenly over then....hot, not hot, hot...why? why put yourself in that position.
But then you did not did you? you are smart after all :)

if you can not tell what will be hot 10 years from now then anyway you are not fit for leadership role in science.

That is exactly right; but the trouble is that you never know what is hot and what is not 10 years from now and any time very few things are hot. You are though wrong about the will to change; we have the will and the brains, it is just not possible, life will overtake you and you cannot go back to grad school around 40, no one will take you and industry does not retrain.

I say you are exactly right in a sense that say law, medicine, politics etc are about experience about the past, about precedent.
Technology is about future, about youth. Why would you want to put yourself in a position where you become less valuable over time? which stupidity would bring you to this choice.

What advantage did we have? Before 70s, out advantage was that we were few. We could change, relearn, keep our job. How many people can learn quantum mechanics or VLSI? but the university and industry started mass importation of labor and increased the supply by many folds. Now we no longer have the only advantage we had. It is obvious from what you wrote that you do no have a phd, do you?

The issue is moot; Americans are leaving STEM, even foreigners are leaving. The nation will pay a price for it and no amount of propaganda can fix it.

It all depends upon how you earned your PhD. If it is earned by spending time researching a subject nobody cares about and utilizes skills that everyone else already has, then you probably wasted your time. The PhDs with decades of experience are similarly unemployable (generally speaking). Their skillset is limited to what they already know and their beliefs are often very rigid and not amenable to new ideas--a bad combination. After reading the thread, there are clearly many that post here. They have become like the senior citizens that cling to their record player and swear that MP3 players are crap.

You see, that is the central point. People who love science and strive to discover are not practical people; they are not good with money, are singularly focused. Why else would they spend 5 year as post docs not saving, 10 years in college earning three degrees while others save, buy houses etc? Science is done in big expensive areas not some hill in the middle of nowhere.
Young very bright Americans are misled by politicians to go to STEM. Look at all this propaganda now, they are now giving out millions to find a way to trick kids to go into a field of study where corporations and university industry want labor arbitrage. Why do you think we are trying to discourage this young person from wasting life? What agenda do you think we have?
we want to save them because we understand them and care about them:

http://wuphys.wustl.edu/~katz/scientist.html

This was written while back.
Now has expanded to every technical area, not just science and engineering. US industrial and academic culture is being rapidly restructured and there is no longer space in it for us.
If in whatever field you are in, the labor supply was doubled by some workers outside the national economy, and you got a little older and more expensive, you think then it would be so impossible to go hungry, specially if in your youth you saved no money but spent years in grad school and post docs.
Please believe what the others and I are telling you here. DO NOT GET A PHD!!!

"The taxes and fees dug deep into my savings. Within 5 years, I became broke. I lost everything in half a decade."

Then you are a total Moron. There are many places in the Country that are cheap to live. You did not move, hence you are a Moron.

As the cliche goes, you can't fix stupid.

I worked in industry with a PhD for 23 years and saved a lot into my retirement. It does not matter. I was fired and after my severance ran out, I had to dip into my retirement. The taxes and fees dug deep into my savings. Within 5 years, I became broke. I lost everything in half a decade

20 yrs of work after having PhD and you do not have enough saved for retirement ????????????????????????????????????

ESPECIALLY you had 20 years in the time of boom or at least most of it. Man i am sure you are faking.

When I am talking to people who have left the lab after getting their PhD, doing postdoc/some faculty some teach some in consultancy, i find happy people. When I talk to even friends of friends I find people who have good family , one or two and sometime three kids. Many have their own homes and many dont but rent very nice single family houses.

I come to this forum and i find starving hungry failed people who think its not 'THEM' it is 'Science' that underlies failure.

Anyone who is reading these depressing dark story should know that this is NOT the whole Truth. Certainly times are tough and they are tough for everyone no matter what degree you earned and what field you are interested in. If you can not earn bread for yourself and for your family after PhD then it means YOU DID NOT DO IT RIGHT, and it also tells that its not just PhD that you did not get right but its the philosophy of life you did not get right.