"If you have a Ph.D., hide your head in shame, then head right out and find yourself a job in Pharma R&D. You'll fit right in with the rest of the ignorant and arrogant pukes who run the show right now."

You will never run a show with the exception of a circus, but then again with your attitude, you may even be disqualified from that. There is absolutely no shame in becoming successful and having a PhD that is indicative of being a good scientist. It is the MBA-types that have ultimately run pharma and have ruined the science for everyone. This is generally not the case with smaller biotechs and that is why they are more innovative and will eventually surpass the outdated pharmas that are spending themselves into extinction.

"You are lucky that u can run ur lab that way."

ANYONE can run their lab that way, in Pharma OR in Academia. It's just matter of will and cleverness.

The key is to subtly subvert the system in order to save it. I'll agree that it is probably more difficult to acquire funding to pursue interesting and important basic science, at least out in the open. The real trick is to make everyone think you are pursuing their economic or philospohical interests while you pursue basic truths. Today their interests would include the practical, applied science demanded by both industry and political zealots from both sides of the spectrum.

This sleight of hand is a centuries-old tactic for paying the bills in science. If you're not clever and determined enough, or can't obfuscate well enough to get the funding you need while pursuing your passion, I recommend you don't pursue a Ph.D.

"we will linger in the cold and we will fight. Do it!"

please, don't discourage this fellow to such a hard life. If he or she wants to walk your path of sorrow by getting a phd and suffer for it, let it come without such (admirable) but propaganda nevertheless.

I think you have enough input from this page. The picture is that it is pretty risky but it is for a good cause. It is really up to you, no need to be hero. The romantic age has passed by more than a century now. There are no marches and parades for "warriors" or scientists. Just look at them, they come back maimed and broken and the wealthy get wealthier and whine about, go forbid, their tax cuts getting expired. No one cares about your heroism and there are people who do, the world is big. Do what makes you happy.

stifle not sniffle I meant sorry :)
The question is not if you will have work or not, the question is if "do you have the constitution to go as far as" is needed to contribute. Why grad school? Because just like Matrix that's where we meet, you and I inside the matrix. There we begin our fight. You will not find people like me in any high concentration anywhere else you go. You will find us in one place in grad school. We meet and become friends. So do a PhD, not for jobs, do it to find the other members of resistance. The sellouts will get the good jobs and go back to their feeding tubes and become hot shots, we will linger in the cold and we will fight. Do it!

"Studying arcane processes like "how does brain dream" is the ONLY way we're going to generate new therapeutic approaches. Until you learn that, stay the hell away from my lab."

You are right but increasingly the bureaucratic review process for grants requires specific research goals and methods to achieve it. It is absurd for discovery to be discovered ahead of time. You are lucky that u can run ur lab that way.

Great enterprises fall under the weight of bureaucracies. First they burn you alive, then they join you but transliterate their dogmatic beliefs to processes. They take over the process and kill your soul. That is the research educational complex. Science will end up again with independently wealthy, the cold hungry resistance. That is precisely what has happened, the ones that don't get with the program will be poor for a long time but persist and few will finally make a blow for the first. Science is once again a heroic effort. Should you do it? Would you go to war if your country needed you? Make no mistake, you do science, you are going to war. A slow motion destruction of your body and livelihood.
But you could choose to live and get a job and family and house and be happy. As for me, I am working with a friend on a new formulation of quantum mechanics and QED, one that will change our understanding of the world. We get by somehow. We will not allow the high priests of the church of granting agencies (in physics they call them "String theorists" more like they hang you with it) to sniffle our spirit. We are heir to Plato, we profess the truth and we seek to discover. So there is a red pill and a blue pill, you take the blue pill or you go with us to the battlefields of reality, there you might die but you will join Socrates.

"We know enough about biological systems for basics so most of the average scientists like me will be paid only if they work towards finding cure NOT How does brain dream."

If you're thinking of getting a Ph.D., stop. If you have a Ph.D., hide your head in shame, then head right out and find yourself a job in Pharma R&D. You'll fit right in with the rest of the ignorant and arrogant pukes who run the show right now. See, you and they think we are all very, very smart, and that we can somehow plan our way into innovation. You are all morons, and are exceeded in your idiocy only by the shareholders of big Pharma, who also think you can engineer breakthroughs if you just spend your money more wisely..

Studying arcane processes like "how does brain dream" is the ONLY way we're going to generate new therapeutic approaches. Until you learn that, stay the hell away from my lab.

"For those who oppose getting a PhD, what is the alternative you propose? "

Learn to drive a truck. It's faster, cheaper, and good drivers are always in demand.

"In the united states, science and engineering is no loner a good career choice for people who are smart enough and determined enough to get a PhD.

WTF.....This makes no sense, loner?"

It makes no sense? It makes sense to the declining number Americans choosing not to do it, to the point that DARPA is worried. You are obviously not a PhD; we might be poor but we learn to make arguments not profanities followed by personal insults.

I am starting as a principal scientist with one of the well known big pharma? (just ended 6 years of postdoc)

I am turning 40 this year ?

Am i in for a tragic path of career ?

Seeing a lot of resumes from PhDs for entry level - BS + 0-2 years positions. They go straight into the garbage. Even if we decide we want one of them, they'll turn the offer down on salary. They may be unemployed, but they still think they're worth more.

In the united states, science and engineering is no loner a good career choice for people who are smart enough and determined enough to get a PhD.

WTF.....This makes no sense, loner?

Don't do it! You will regret it with high probability. Life is more important than science or degrees and PhD is not good for your health and life unless you are independently wealthy or clearly a genius.

I was searching craigs list today and stumbled on a listing for lab associate...standard lab opportunity,but the funny thing was a post script at the end "No Phds please, you are over qualified" too funny.

In the united states, science and engineering is no loner a good career choice for people who are smart enough and determined enough to get a PhD. That is the key. A medical doctor, an IP lawyer, MBA combined with a technical degree....these are better choices.
For those who think we oppose the PhD for no reason; the evidence is there already in the declining number of American Phds. That has happened in part because of labor arbitrage but also changes in R&D structure and the education industry's cost cutting (temporary positions etc.)
Still if you work with an influential professor from top 5 schools who helps her students to find jobs, as I said before, PhD is not a bad choice. If you are passionate about it and has that kind of advisor, do it. Otherwise, it is foolish. No one without a PhD want to hire someone who by default is superior to him and if he has PhD and is not your close friend, he has a pipeline to his own and will not hire you. Few jobs, and connection trumps talent. besides the academic and friendship, there is now a growing ethnic network as well. Chinese hire Chinese etc.
Finally my advice: Open your eyes ans see the world for what it is, then and only do a PhD and know the huge risk. I really do not mean to scare you but it really is risky.

As a masters with ~ 15 years in the pharma industry in chemistry I would recommend:
Get a PhD if you are in the top 15% and can get into a world renowned group at a prestigious university.
If you are more average and will only be able to get into a somewhat known group, don't get a PhD. You will have a hard time finding a job and will have to go though 2-3 postdocs and still struggle to find a job.
In that case get a Master. You would probably be in the top 15% of none PhD and will have job opportunities. You may reach a ceiling though and not be able to move up the career ladder after 10 years (especially in big pharma).
I hope this helps. Good luck!

"I am a PhD in electrical engineering, MS in physics and MS in applied mathematics BS in electrical engineering, BS is computer science. I scored perfect on quantitative SAT, almost perfect on GRE. I think I know something and want to guide this person.

But, I did not know these blogs whee you guys talk, sorry I bugged in; I thought the question was general.

But from what you say, well yeah if you guess right and move right, you'll make it. It's like NFL"

Ok, so your an electrician, I understand, and if you want to work in the NFL I would suggest you try your local. Sometimes they get jobs at the stadiums. Good Luck in your job search

For those who oppose getting a PhD, what is the alternative you propose? Another career perhaps? Generally BS degrees now lead to tech positions and MS degrees have limited upward mobility.

I vote no (I have a phd, unless your advisor is well connected and has a history of placing his students with good jobs in industry and academia; AND gives a damn about you, rare)

I just came across this question by accident. I am a PhD in electrical engineering, MS in physics and MS in applied mathematics BS in electrical engineering, BS is computer science. I scored perfect on quantitative SAT, almost perfect on GRE. I think I know something and want to guide this person.

But, I did not know these blogs whee you guys talk, sorry I bugged in; I thought the question was general.

But from what you say, well yeah if you guess right and move right, you'll make it. It's like NFL, you might make it and you will tell people it's great. As I said before the issue is moot; in practice Americans have voted with their feet and do not get Phds. One gets an idea from these posts too. It is economic reality; it is hard and unpleasant. You want to risk making it to NFL, who am I to tell you not to? Just don't believe politicians that there is a shortage, there is a glut. At least I hope you agree with that, must be true in your field too. I am out, "talk amongst yourselves :)

For what we do and they did, they are pretty cheap. That's the truth.
I am all for importing Fermi. Yes not 20,000 ms and phd every year. no. My father was an immigrant and a great scientist. I have nothing against them.

You blame American people for no good reason. Let me explain. Corporations have found many ways to increase wealth for the shareholders. Some are legitimate, some are not (such as moving R&D and American IP over to Asia, such as lowering the wages of phds etc by labor arbitrage) The effect is that for the most part (at least until Asia catches up infra structurally) mush of this wealth enters US economy. It's just pure money from keeping wages down from labor outside, from downsizing.... it's just money, lots of money. So service and finance grow around it. My point is that the shift is not cultural, it is directly economic. It was inevitable. do you see?

Again you are obviously not a Phd nor a scientist. We are not gods. who knows how the world evolves in a decade? During cold war, control was hot. Then suddenly it ended. Did you know? could we know? Then funds dried up for that field. Life is more complex than you think. It also depends on government immigration policies. In the 90s US imported massively from Russia. Now China is taking back. DARPA wants to train for this, then terrorism hence say graphs and cyber then war on terror is suddenly over then....hot, not hot, hot...why? why put yourself in that position.
But then you did not did you? you are smart after all :)

--------------------

I am a PhD in neuroscience. We are on Pharma blog so please pick examples in life sciences' field. I do not understand why 'Unemployed Grumpy' Life Scientists :) will take examples from war on terror to make a point about their unemployment. (Although war on terror will have new type of funding for biologists that never existed:))...

10 years ago cloning a gene was hot and now it is not. I knew it when i started my PhD that if i did not learn more than cloning and sequencing genes I will be out so I focused more on functional genomics. Now after 10 years times are changing and we know that in hard times and scarce funding, no one is going to give me money to study consciousness if i am NOT THE BEST (I am not), so I am focusing more and more on neurodegeneration/Alzheimer etc. Because 10 years from now it is the translational research that is going to dominate even in academia. We know enough about biological systems for basics so most of the average scientists like me will be paid only if they work towards finding cure NOT How does brain dream. For that new technologies are emerging (or have emerged) High throughput screening etc that will require me to learn more many times crossing the fields. If i do not then 10 years from now if I have no Idea how does computer analyze a complex image (or even know that it can), I have no idea what kind of statistics is must for high throughput analysis, I will be out.

What advantage did we have? Before 70s, out advantage was that we were few. We could change, relearn, keep our job. How many people can learn quantum mechanics or VLSI? but the university and industry started mass importation of labor and increased the supply by many folds. Now we no longer have the only advantage we had. It is obvious from what you wrote that you do no have a phd, do you?

============

Good point. But unfortunately does not have a solution. America has been a leader in nourishing the 'culture of money' in this world. By % US will have many more number of people who make their livelihood just by trading in stock market (Without making a real contribution to society, because AS LONG AS YOU MAKE MONEY YOU ARE FINE).

It is one thing that we say no job is bad, but it is another when a high school student thinks opening a line of pizzeria because it will be more profitable than going to college to learn what education means. It is always money money money money....This is the culture that has generated an Artifact in society called Sales/Marketing/MBAs . Now professional created by this cultures reach top posts most of the time. BUT All they care about is MONEY. If it makes money to cut on research = let us do it. If it makes money to send jobs overseas = Let us do it. If it makes money to lobby government for not banning marketing prescription drugs = let us do it.

These people have grown up thinking about money. This is how they defines quality of the job. Now problem is not because Americans are more expensive to hire. Problem is that Americans are not the only one who can do the job and these MONEY MAKING MINDS are exploiting this to make money.

USA was a strong proponent of globalization when American products were flooding Asian markets. Local companies were crying blood in front of American toys and tools and US was telling them globalization is the future so embrace it. NOW all of a sudden when US has started losing on the name of globalization you call well educated sincere hard working students coming from Asia - Cheap Labor ?? Majority of the Nobel Prize winners are Americans but very few of them born and trained in America. So PLEASE STOP CALLING FOREIGN PhDs/Post Docs CHEAP labor. You insult their intellect.

Again you are obviously not a Phd nor a scientist. We are not gods. who knows how the world evolves in a decade? During cold war, control was hot. Then suddenly it ended. Did you know? could we know? Then funds dried up for that field. Life is more complex than you think. It also depends on government immigration policies. In the 90s US imported massively from Russia. Now China is taking back. DARPA wants to train for this, then terrorism hence say graphs and cyber then war on terror is suddenly over then....hot, not hot, hot...why? why put yourself in that position.
But then you did not did you? you are smart after all :)

if you can not tell what will be hot 10 years from now then anyway you are not fit for leadership role in science.

That is exactly right; but the trouble is that you never know what is hot and what is not 10 years from now and any time very few things are hot. You are though wrong about the will to change; we have the will and the brains, it is just not possible, life will overtake you and you cannot go back to grad school around 40, no one will take you and industry does not retrain.

I say you are exactly right in a sense that say law, medicine, politics etc are about experience about the past, about precedent.
Technology is about future, about youth. Why would you want to put yourself in a position where you become less valuable over time? which stupidity would bring you to this choice.

What advantage did we have? Before 70s, out advantage was that we were few. We could change, relearn, keep our job. How many people can learn quantum mechanics or VLSI? but the university and industry started mass importation of labor and increased the supply by many folds. Now we no longer have the only advantage we had. It is obvious from what you wrote that you do no have a phd, do you?

The issue is moot; Americans are leaving STEM, even foreigners are leaving. The nation will pay a price for it and no amount of propaganda can fix it.

It all depends upon how you earned your PhD. If it is earned by spending time researching a subject nobody cares about and utilizes skills that everyone else already has, then you probably wasted your time. The PhDs with decades of experience are similarly unemployable (generally speaking). Their skillset is limited to what they already know and their beliefs are often very rigid and not amenable to new ideas--a bad combination. After reading the thread, there are clearly many that post here. They have become like the senior citizens that cling to their record player and swear that MP3 players are crap.

You see, that is the central point. People who love science and strive to discover are not practical people; they are not good with money, are singularly focused. Why else would they spend 5 year as post docs not saving, 10 years in college earning three degrees while others save, buy houses etc? Science is done in big expensive areas not some hill in the middle of nowhere.
Young very bright Americans are misled by politicians to go to STEM. Look at all this propaganda now, they are now giving out millions to find a way to trick kids to go into a field of study where corporations and university industry want labor arbitrage. Why do you think we are trying to discourage this young person from wasting life? What agenda do you think we have?
we want to save them because we understand them and care about them:

http://wuphys.wustl.edu/~katz/scientist.html

This was written while back.
Now has expanded to every technical area, not just science and engineering. US industrial and academic culture is being rapidly restructured and there is no longer space in it for us.
If in whatever field you are in, the labor supply was doubled by some workers outside the national economy, and you got a little older and more expensive, you think then it would be so impossible to go hungry, specially if in your youth you saved no money but spent years in grad school and post docs.
Please believe what the others and I are telling you here. DO NOT GET A PHD!!!

"The taxes and fees dug deep into my savings. Within 5 years, I became broke. I lost everything in half a decade."

Then you are a total Moron. There are many places in the Country that are cheap to live. You did not move, hence you are a Moron.

As the cliche goes, you can't fix stupid.

I worked in industry with a PhD for 23 years and saved a lot into my retirement. It does not matter. I was fired and after my severance ran out, I had to dip into my retirement. The taxes and fees dug deep into my savings. Within 5 years, I became broke. I lost everything in half a decade

20 yrs of work after having PhD and you do not have enough saved for retirement ????????????????????????????????????

ESPECIALLY you had 20 years in the time of boom or at least most of it. Man i am sure you are faking.

When I am talking to people who have left the lab after getting their PhD, doing postdoc/some faculty some teach some in consultancy, i find happy people. When I talk to even friends of friends I find people who have good family , one or two and sometime three kids. Many have their own homes and many dont but rent very nice single family houses.

I come to this forum and i find starving hungry failed people who think its not 'THEM' it is 'Science' that underlies failure.

Anyone who is reading these depressing dark story should know that this is NOT the whole Truth. Certainly times are tough and they are tough for everyone no matter what degree you earned and what field you are interested in. If you can not earn bread for yourself and for your family after PhD then it means YOU DID NOT DO IT RIGHT, and it also tells that its not just PhD that you did not get right but its the philosophy of life you did not get right.

"I have a PhD and going hungry after 20 years of work. I do mean hungry; I am too proud to ask for food stamps, and cannot find a job; have lost everything."

Only an idiot starves for the sake of "pride". Your taxes supported a system that largely caters to slackers for those 20 years you were employed. You paid into the system, unlike the slackers, so there's nothing wrong with withdrawing something from that system now when you need it most. Nobody is giving you anything. You are just asking for what you are OWED.

The question is a request for right estimate"

" if having a Doctoral or Master of Science makes it easier to find a job or if there are a lot of people with advanced degrees that are out of work (or are at least grossly underemployed)."

The answer is most certainly that getting a Phd does not make it easier. Smart enough to get a PhD? then be smart and become an IP lawyer. Do not ruin your life with a PhD.

Please don't base any decision on what you read on the rumor mill, as it not close to being true. I have a stayed employed in the Biotech/Pharma field for as long as I have cared to work with a graduate degree. The secret is persistence. The same as the persistence it takes to get through grad school. Be ready to move laterally, and increase your skill base as you grow. The luxury of staying in the same geographical area has vanished. Always remember, you are your own corporation in these economic times, so best of luck, the more education/skills you can amass the more valuable you will remain well into the future.

"I am considering graduate school in the future and wonder if it will be worth it, or if I should just give up on biotech altogether."

Consider graduate school only in the past, not the future.

The bottom line is that if you are good in your field of study and can apply skills you learned to generate money for the company you will always find work."
===============================================================
HA HA HA HA HA HA. You are dumb as shite.
Except in today's economy where there are no jobs, as they are being shipped overseas faster than they can be created. There are no jobs today and there will be only a small fraction of no jobs within 5 years.
You better have spent 10 years learning Chinese or your idiotic PhD won't earn you even a beefburger.
Worthless shite.

It is very simple; government funding and not markets dictate how many graduate students are trained for a PhD. Then government provides corporations with labor arbitrage in form of h1b, green cards etc.

Thus government interferes with market forces on the behalf of University Industry (it is no longer academic but industrial in its culture and scope) by importing cheap grad students and paying for it and then interferes again by means of increasing the labor supply, a form of corporate welfare. The triangle of Corporations Universities Government (CUG) turns a Phd into a disposable CUG for the machinery of profit-corruption industry.

Getting a PhD is essentially the transformation of a creative human person into a non-human person CUG. Why would you volunteer for such dehumanization? I have a PhD and going hungry after 20 years of work. I do mean hungry; I am too proud to ask for food stamps, and cannot find a job; have lost everything. Please kids, do not repeat my error, do not become a CUGed.

If you've been to countless interviews maybe you just suck at interviews, don't mesh with the company culture, or are a generally unatractive candidate.
Easy to say its the fault of you experience- when in reality it is you that sucks.

I have a Master of Science degree and I'm jobless. I've applied tons of jobs and went to countless interviews but I didn't nail one. It was either I'm underqualified(no relevant job experiences) or overqualified (they can pay less to Bsc candidate)for the job.

what topic you had for your PhD thesis ?

I have a MSc (3 years), a PhD (5 years), 6 publications in elsevier journals and no job. I thought that I will have a great future however it was a mistake. Depending of the opportunity I hide my masters or my PhD, but again no job. Avoid science and avoid suffering in the future.

"You end up living in a homeless shelter and begging for spare change."

So this is your story? I didn't know homeless shelters provided internet access.

Forget employment in the Western world with a science degree. You can thank the Bush Regime. All the jobs are in Chindia. The trend of less American jobs and more Chindia jobs will continue for the rest of our life time. The United States is no longer a major world power. China is. They have a stronger economy and military. Their infrastructure and science/tech is better. Each day Ph.D. and Master degree holders are fired and forced to stand in the unemployment line. They spend weeks and months looking for work only to be told they are over qualified. Then their unemployment runs out, they lose their home, their spouse divorces them, they sell their car for pennies on the dollar to have enough money to eat off the value menu at McDonalds. They put an application in while they are eating their $1 sundae only to compete with a 16 year old high school kid. Of course, the 16 year old kids the job because the college graduate is "over qualified". You end up living in a homeless shelter and begging for spare change. The nice thing is that 16 year old kid that got the job you needed, he will usually throw you his pocket change.

I drove a taxi after high school. Another guy around my age remained in the taxi business while I spent 12 or more years in school ending up, reluctantly because of the recurring recessions every time I graduated (1973, 1982, 1988...), with a PhD

Guess what?; The established taxi driver has a nice house, a few cars, married, a few hundred grand in the bank.
And guess what else?; I now drive a taxi, have no cash, no home, no family, no retirement fund, but I am a PhD
The only nice part is that since I have a lot of time to myself, I can indulge in music creation/composition which I otherwise would not have had the time for what with grant applications and all that fun fun stuff. I do like that.

If you are not Einstein beware, you are feed for the farm.

BSc = Bull Shitt
MSc = More of the same
PhD = Piled higher and deeper....

please excuse the spelling I dont bother check anymore...

allen

If you've only got a BS or MS, then getting a job in academia is relatively easy. Just be prepared to get paid like you're unskilled labor.

There will be few science careers in the rapidly shrinking pharma industry. If you just got a PhD you're 30 years too late!!!!!

I just posted an advert for a Research Associate position and had way too many Ph.Ds apply. There must be a glut of people willing to do any science related work.

================

Where'd ya post the RA job?

The consensus is don't go into science. Do not get a BSc or a PhD.
Rather, take over the family business or kill someone for their money, like everyone else does.
You will not get a job or make money in science.

You will starve and you will dishonour your family.

Beckman Morrisville is looking for a few good PhDeeez!!

Avoid science! It does not matter if you have a B.S., M.S., or Ph.D. There are no jobs in the sciences unless you speak chinese or hindu