Please post here any news about layoffs and leave the political scene on the other thread.
This product produces a diagnostic result which, when used in conjunction with other clinical information and data, MAY be of use to qualified medical personnel in determining a diagnosis.
How can you sue against a qualifying statement like that?
Despite all of the FDA recalls and, presumably, bad results with product prior to recall, there have been surprisingly few lawsuits, let alone successful ones, against the diagnostics industry. Most manufacturers put enough qualifying 'weasel' words in their product labeling to deal with issues relating to inaccurate results. The bigger problem for manufacturers is that recalls often put them into a backorder situation which is generally unacceptable to their customers and frequently causes a permanent loss of business.
My lab was purchasing Immulites PSA kit until it was removed from the market a few months ago.
Why? Between 20%-30% higher readings than actual patient value!
Just GOOGLE "Siemens PSA Recall".
This was a worldwide event.
One can only imagine when the lawsuits will hit.
It seems I was wrong. Things are worse than I thought which can only mean an earlier exit from Immulite than I had anticipated. The Las Vegas odds will change now too.
Immulite has minimal to no Backorder problems.
If Llanberis or LA or Tarrytown can't fix the problemed kit they simply "remove" it from the platforms menu. I've been told over 30 to date.
This is exactly how DX has been handling the Immulite backrorder issue the past five years.
What Siemens does not seem to understand is what a backorder does to a customer. They have to tell the doctor, who then has to tell the patient: I'm sorry, your test hasn't been run because Siemens was out of stock. For a lab, that's business lost and much of it isn't recovered as doctors go elsewhere. In other labs, it triggers a system replacement with a competitor. Backorders cannot be tolerated, in particular in emergency situations or tests that are often run as stats. Repeated and ongoing backorders are product killers. Siemens doesn't get it.
Although customers already know about RIA's shutdown in September 2014, my lab was informed formal notification is being sent out in a few weeks.
Final kit shipments will be in September.
Immulite is a separate issue. Between Llanberis, LA and who knows how many backorder issues it's a subject Siemens Management just doesn't want to tackle.
The Immulite 2000 is still being sold but mostly used for esoteric testing and Allergens.
Siemens really doesn't have any replacement platforms for Vista, Centaur or Immulite which is fantastic news for all its competitors.
My lab just shipped back 2 Immulites and switching over to a Roche modular designed system.
Either Tarrytown or Llanberis will eventually take over all of LA's minimal manufacturing anyway. It can even be outsourced if necessary for cheaper cost than what LA is costing.
Many of us who follow the industry are actually quite surprised they aren't shutting down all of LA in September 2014.
It's a perfect example on how "not" to run a business.
The bigger issue is when will Siemens formally exit the Immulite business and how. Will they just close all of LA and Llanberis after appropriate customer notification or will they, perhaps, see if Llanberis wants to make a go of it on their own, possibly with the help of a rump LA group in space that Siemens might lease to Llanberis. There are many possibilities here and it is almost impossible to know when LA will close until we know Siemens mid- to long range plans for Immulite. Eventually, the declining field population which, among other things, increases the production cost per test, increasing service costs for older instruments, and other financial factors will give Siemens no choice but to shut it down. The real question now is whether Siemens has even thought this whole process out given their poor management performance from day 1.
So when are they finally going to shutdown CrossPoint and end that major loss of revenue in LA.
Siemens is a shining example of how to waste money and just sell old products not relevant to the marketplace anymore.
Congratulations. It only took 9 years for Siemens to exit from the unprofitability of RIA which hasn't been a major factor in diagnostics for the past 20 years or so. Siemens is the shining example of a modern, up-to-date company, isn't it?
RIA is being shutdown September 2014.
Siemens has more or less been forced to keep LA open for two reasons I can think of. One is to keep the RIA product line going. They should have sold this business off within 6 months to a year after acquisition or just shut it down. They live today with the consequence of that blunder. The other reason is that Siemens was not able to transfer the reliable manufacture of a few specialty chemicals from LA to Llanberis and thus, must still rely on LA for their production and/or support. This failure stands in stark contrast to the fact that virtually every other diagnostics company has accomplished the transfer of these kind of critical components to their routine manufacturing facility. Even today, it sounds like Llanberis is still dependent on LA. I'm not there but indications here are that that is the case. The continued existence of LA at this late date is the glaring example of just how poorly Siemens understands the diagnostics business. It really is a pity to see what they have destroyed or allowed to fall apart, not only in LA, but in all three components of their organization. Whatever talent there was that once made DPC, Technicon-Bayer, and DuPont Dade great leaders in diagnostics no longer exists at Siemens, nor has it been replaced. The saddest part is that Siemens probably doesn't even know that need specialized talent, be it in R&D, strategic planning, marketing, and to some extent service. The combination of dead wood and overly energetic and completely inexperienced and lacking in basic knowledge or understanding of what makes the diagnostics business work simply isn't working for Siemens. So while LA is the current issue and hot topic, it's history and fate are symptomatic of a whole range of problems that Siemens has yet to solve.
Well, that all might be true but it's hard to believe Siemens can't shutdown down the remnants of a site which was over 900 with less than 150 remaining.
The irony is although the headcount has decreased the facility size has not. So, if I understand this right, for apparently several years Siemens has kept open an expensive location for at most 10% of what's left of the employee's.
No wonder DX keeps losing money.
Wow, truly a suprise for me. I hadn't realized just how silly the DX Management was until now. Billions spent got flushed down the toilet. Hard to believe but true.
The plan was to shut down all LA R&D and to transfer the manufacture of 'critical components' from LA to Llanberis, making the latter totally responsible for all reagent manufacturing on their own. The easy task, stopping all future R&D was basically accomplished. The more difficult task, transferring manufacturing to Llanberis has been a big failure for several reasons:
Llanberis did not have the technical expertise to pick up the complicated syntheses easily
No formal transfer process was in place for these kind of materials. Siemens had, and still has, no clue as to the proper procedures for the transfer of complicated, synthetic manufacturing procedures. Siemens did not take advantage of whatever technology transfer expertise that resided elsewhere within the organization. (Most of that expertise is probably gone by now, so it's a bit late for that.)
LA documentation was insufficient to let Llanberis learn on their own. This is something that DPC R&D was never forced to do since they remained either in charge of, or available to oversee, the manufacture of critical components. In most diagnostics companies, documentation of procedures is as important a function of R&D as the actual development process.
LA did not cooperate in any way with the transfer to Llanberis since they perceived that their job security was at stake. Siemens, on the other hand, did not create an appropriate set of incentives to facilitate cooperation on the part of LA employees.
I hope the above somewhat brutal truths answer you question about what happened. The picture isn't pretty and the facts will offend many, but, as they say: them's the facts and you can't change reality.
What exactly do they do there?
I thought, other than RIA, it was shutdown years ago.
How many are left? I remember being told CrossPoint was a
huge facility and that up to 900 fit in there.
They can't have that many now.
What's going at at Llanberis? Originally they were suppose to take over all Immulite manufacturing.
What went wrong? I mean this isn't brain surgery here.
Maybe this is one big joke.
LA is Siemens' flagship site. They can't shut it down because it is the most obvious symbol of the total failure that their unfortunate adventure into the world of diagnostics has been. Siemens is desperate to be a leader and LA is clearly their loss leader.
What a long, strange joke it's been.
You're kidding me.
LA is still around!
I thought they shut it down years ago.
Siemens...no wonder they're losing money and customers.
Top of list has to be LA.
Anymore news on additional site closures(east and west coasts)?
I'm sure more layoffs are in the works though.
I agree that most companies think that way. No one is or should be absolutely essential. Anyone can be replaced. However, it's just another business myth in many instances. In R&D, for instance, there is a premium for experience and especially direct experience. Things you learn from your colleagues over the years. Sure, there are some lower level jobs where the instant replacement without losing a step concept works. In business, I doubt there are many Harvard or Wharton graduates who could easily run a diagnostics company. Again, experience and understanding the specifics are very valuable. One of the problems that Siemens diagnostics faces now is that when it comes to those experience and understand positions, there are very few people running around any more to actually replace highly skilled positions. It isn't simply a case of laying off an older worker and hiring a younger one at half the salary. And Siemens will do exactly what you predicted. You'd would have thought they've learned something after all these years.
When you let someone go,no matter which rung of the corporate ladder they're from, you can always replace them with someone who will do the same job for less pay, usually due to naivete because they're younger.
Also, whenever you let anyone go (especially in a company that is super compartmentalized like siemens; made up of lots and lots of small departments), the rest of the department can be exploited to do more and not complain for fear of being next.
I agree that many managers and directors in Tarrytown are contributing nothing to the success of diagnostics and are, quite frequently, a large part of the problem I just wonder when the last time was that a major diagnostics company laid off a large number of managers, directors, and VPs as a solution rather than simply cutting head count at the bottom. Most of the time, the only thing that these large companies do with their upper level people is to shuffle them around into new positions and proudly claim that their latest 'reorganization' is the true solution to their problems. Bayer, for instance, did lay off almost an entire layer of mid- to upper-level managers in the 90s, but with little real effect on the actual performance of their failed diagnostics effort. The solution often sounds simple, but is rarely taken. Laying off managers, directors, and VP presumes that one can find much better replacements and form them into a functioning team within a short time frame. There just doesn't seem to be much precedent from this occurring or working.
Tarrytown will need to let go a LOT of people. Nothing will get fixed until incompetent managers are shown the door. Unless that happens, hiring new blood won't cure the TTN DX blues. Most new hires don't have a clue as to what the problems are. And what good are those who find the technical root causes when managers won't let you fix it. Isn't that right, CF?
Anything new in LA?
We heard a few days ago they let go the person
running the RIA Division. Isn't it suppose to be open for another year?
Word here at Tarrytown is after a few layoffs are dealt with we will be hiring new blood. Another visit by MR is also in the works. Not sure when though.
thiet ke web bangmedia
"chủ đề rất hay
Thiet ke web
Siemens has already demonstrated its inability to transfer complex reagents.
If this rumour is true, it really is the beginning of the end.
Walpole is moving production to Indianapolis,or is that just the first stop on its way to China? Will Walpole be only r & d?
I saw nothing that was DPC specific either. That's why I started by saying 'sounds like'. Whether the intent of the post was to brag about DPC or diagnostics' chemists in general was somewhat irrelevant to me. Either way, it hit a nerve with someone who is eternally hostile to arrogance. Arrogance is such a horrific sin that it is addressed in the Ten Commandments (so, it must be a biggie). As a fun challenge, review the Ten Commandments to see if you can figure out which one considers arrogance to be a curse (there is a hint in the way I phrased that).
I didn't see a thing about DPC. Looks like he/ she was talking about diagnostics in general. But I agree the one who brags about DPC is a jerk.
This, once again, sounds like a re-hash of the DPC people walk on water theme. While a certain amount of expertise is required in diagnostics, much of what is done that leads to success is a combination of trial-and-error coupled with mass action. As someone who has been involved in diagnostics R&D for over 30 years and who holds multiple patents in the field and who is responsible for several International Standards, I am still able to put things in perspective and have no need to tell the rest of the world how special we are. Claiming to be special is not simply a self-serving attitude, but it insults many people in other disciplines who are just as creative in their sector as you may or may not have been in yours.
"But wondering if someone could explain this, beyond simply "biology is tricky"
Your very comments about diagnostics not being any more "difficult" than imaging, is telling, and further expounds on why outsiders do not understand diagnostics. Perhaps it is the word "difficult" that is causing the misunderstanding, and the better word would be "different". "Difficult" implies that we feel superior in some way, but we fully realize that imaging in its own way can be just as "difficult".
In the technical world of imaging, most of the parameters are well known, and you guy's are after greater resolution, contrast, etc., etc. All things that may be extremely difficult to achieve, but at least you basically know what you are dealing with.
But diagnostics really is different, because we actually do not know precisely what we are working with! The stuff we are measuring, we cannot actually see and are commonly measured in picograms, amounts that cannot even be grasped at the physical level. We measure/ quantitate/ identify etc. stuff we cannot see with tools we cannot directly measure them with. We "interpret" how much stuff is there by how their levels change radio/ immuno/ fluorescence/ etc. chemistries. Virtually every measurement is interpolated and has to be correlated w/ other references that need standardization to equate values between methods. The antibodies we use all differ drastically w/ how they "see" the stuff we are quantitating. Further, every patients serum is different and the corresponding levels of interfering compounds in their particular blood is different, and there are tons of unknown proteins, steroids, hormones, drugs, etc. we do not even know about yet, or how they affect the assays. There are carrier protein complexes that need neutralizing to release the stuff we are after, further complicating measurements and many hormones we measure are extremely labile etc., etc.
In short there are tons of things we do not know, about the very stuff we are using as reagents and we are using them in patient samples that can vary so much that some samples will give crazy results. The whole business is about trying to massage all 10 billion different variables, most of which is beyond our control, and many times beyond even our realization that the interfering compound even exists!
So you see, its not that we are so much "smarter", it is because we do not know nearly enough yet, about the stuff we are working with. That is why even repeating results with the same "exact" assay can be difficult to do with patient samples. Too much stuff going on at the same time, all the time.
Thank you for re-explaining my post. That is what I meant by the economics being different because the money was in the aftermarket. The Gillette model is correct. We give away razors (analyzers) and make the money on the razor blades (reagents, controls, calibrators, ancillaries). And unlike Gillette which has a fairly standard blade, diagnostics has over 100 'blades' (reagents) each of which has its own performance expectations and many of which has issues that may require a discussion with and explanation by a salesman. Product development, service, manufacture and sales is like Gillette on steroids. That's why diagnostics is different from imaging. Not better, not worse, not harder or easier, just different.
"Simple answer. Diagnostics is primarily about the aftermarket..."
While this post is true up to a point, it is also the revenue stream that is completely different for Dx. When you sell an imaging system, it's like selling a TV: you get the money up front, and except for service contracts or maybe an upgrade, you're done. With a Dx sale, the money for the box is nice, but the big bucks come with the continuing need for reagents, testing supplies and calibrators that can go on for a decade or more after the initial purchase. There have been cases where the instrument was virtually given away because the income from supplies was so substantial. King Gillette's greatest insight wasn't devising the safety razor, it was realizing that he could give away the handle for free and make his profit by tying the purchaser into buying blades for his entire adult life
Yeah sure it won't go to china --Masshole!!
Ludacris -- just because they sopent money in Tarry and Walpo
does not mean anything. You must be a masshole. Only this type of Mass mentality would think a foreign company would put up with
Mass politics. Tarry is too expensi and Walp
will lose favored statu tax--exempt kiss in the mail gifts evetuall
The state is broke, it is a welfare state and only glad shkes and greased palms keep it going. o German company worth its salt would keep Walp or Tarry toontown.
Look at BASF , they couldn't take it for even 5 yrs
Simple answer. Diagnostics is primarily about the aftermarket. I was not comparing the technical complexity, which is probably greater in imaging. Both build a 'box'. In one case, the box must accept hundreds of different sets of reagents that have to produce fairly specific results. Each one of these must be tested for precision, accuracy, stability and freedom from interferences. There are some fairly rigid standards in diagnostics for the performance of most methods. And these reagents need to be manufactured and controlled in a very reproducible manner. And when a new box is designed, it must be tested with each of the existing or new reagents. I don't believe the same applies to imaging. As a result of the aftermarket nature of diagnostics, the economics are very different.
dead and gone. definately to China for blood gas and advia
agreed dead and gone
There is always a lot of talk on here about "Siemens never understood DX", usually followed by "DX is different them imaging..." Seems the implication is that imaging is simple, but DX is complicated (and special).
Obviously this is a DX board. And not really trying to troll here. But wondering if someone could explain this, beyond simply "biology is tricky". There's plenty of fancy, tricky stuff going on in imaging, particular functional imaging such as PET where you have plenty of biology and chemistry and physics and.... There is a lot more going on there than just an X-Ray or ultrasound.
So when people suggest that the problem is that Siemens senior management doesn't "get" diagnostics, I'm curious what it is people think they don't get. Or why they were able to "get" imaging but not DX.
Glasgow sounds safe for now too. Clinical chemistry R&D was just eliminated in Tarrytown and the function (along with possibly some Tarrytown employees) transferred to Glasgow.
News of an additional 15,000 layoffs has upped the stock. Shareholders want profit and, for now, profit=layoffs.
15,000 is not the end of it all. Expect a few thousand more through 2014. Last weekend analysts expected only 10,000 layoffs. Another 5000 popped up overnight.
Site closures will also be included.
Safe havens for now are Tarrytown and Flanders.
Everything else, up for grabs.
LA's RIA is scheduled for shutdown in one year.
September 2014 will see last RIA kits being shipped.
CrossPoint--Not sure what's going on there. Maybe 150 people in a 800 person facility. Mostly Immulite reagents related.
Apparently Llanberis could not handle the load.
Remains to be seen how long they'll stay open.
Definitely not closing next week though.
We hear lots of rumors at Tarrytown about another
re-organization of sorts at this site. MR was impressed with the facility. I think he wants us to take more of a lead in DX.
Yes, they have planned to shut LA down next week!
So, do they plan on shutting down LA anytime soon?
Another one. I can't seem to shoot straight either.
The old platforms definitely don't HELP nor does
Damn multi-tasking gets you every time.
They still have no clue HOW Imaging oops, sorry.
They still have no clue who Imaging is fundamentally different than diagnostics. The old platforms definitely don't hurt nor does the residual bad publicity from the mostly forgotten Advia IMS and the still in the ICU Vista. Vista is limping along but has provided nowhere near the financials that Siemens anticipated. Siemens chaotic service isn't helping either. They are literally like the gang that couldn't shoot straight.
True, but at this stage of the game it really doesn't matter.
They went from #1 to #4(or less) and are basically second string players now. I have no doubt they regret getting into this field in the first place. IMAGING worked out great for them. It was a division and technology they could understand. Diagnostics? they haven't a clue and never learn't from their mistakes.
I agree that eventually most US sites will close with manufacturing moving to China and Europe. Actually, I can think of several sites which should have been closed already.
The platforms being sold are old and some need to be mothballed.
Ironically, DX was one of the greatest things to happen to Roche and several other competitors.
I wonder if, with all of their consultants and all of their own employees, anyone ever explained to Siemens management how and why diagnostics has a completely different business model than their other divisions. Siemens is slowly creeping up on a decade of ownership with virtually no understand of the special attributes of the diagnostics industry business model. Whatever consolidation they do and however many they lay off, it is hard to imagine success until they understand the dynamics of diagnostics.
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