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The comparison with Kodak was an example of a company which doesn't expand its product line to match its competitors new technology. In this respect it is an excellent example.
My family worked for Kodak for two decades. Even they knew the decline was imminent as newer technology from competitors kept stealing away business.
Diagnostic customers aren't stupid. Putting a new suit on an old instrument just doesn't make it anymore.
DX never had a chance in the US market so they concentrated on China. It's a short term fix.
2013 through 2015 will see the DX division scrape the bottom.
Can you imagine having a company which goes from #1 to #4 (if not lower by now) in less than 6years. How embarrassed would you feel? Because of its size when Kodak was shutting many of its doors and jobs in Rochester, NY the whole city mourned.
No one will mourn for DX. Just a bad company with old products and no respect for its employee's.
If you think things are bad now, just wait.

Kodak is a poor comparison. A very large part of their business was in film for cameras. Their bread and butter products simply got replaced by a newer and, in some ways, better technology.

In contrast, DX is a tiny part of Siemens overall. Siemens DX is not threatened by a new technology as was Kodak. It simply has old, worn out products. It is basically like trying to sell brand new 1995 model cars. They still do the job, but just don't have meet all the expectations of a 2013 model car. Siemens has a big problem with service (service was not really an issue for Kodak film) and a problem with the FDA. They are also trying to sell a product 'line' that derives from three separate companies, styles, and cultures which don't have a unified feel like systems from competitors.

Ultimately Siemens simply cannot survive without a new system. A better analogy with Kodak would be IF Kodak had continued to only make black and white film whilst their competitors had both black and white, and colour film. It is hard to take Siemens seriously right now. What have they done in over half a decade? A few new assays on some of their systems, a few software upgrades, new skins for old instruments? It makes customers wonder if Siemens even has a legitimate R&D department anymore. Siemens simply has to do something to make customers believe they are for real.

Kodak is a good company for comparison.
A giant in its time. Lost its way when not preparing
for the future by just relying on film stock and loaded film cameras. In essence, DX, is following the same course by relying on old platforms most labs just don't want anymore.
It's the main reason they can't break into the US market.
China sales won't last because they'll eventually build their own models.
If nothing changes and DX continues to follow this path then nothing good will come of it.
Ironically, Agenda 2013 is usually a last resort plan done by companies before shutting down. A "Garage Sale" of sorts.
Eventually reality sets in and people start packing up.

Trinidad is a platform which has been played around with for several years already. Will it be the "be all, do all, can all" platform for DX. Not.
Nothing in the US is being developed other than what the previous poster mentioned regarding cosmetic upgrades.
Siemens payed over $15B for an odd collection of old platforms.
If something is being worked elsewhere it is probably in Europe.
Even Beta sites in US would be eventually leaked.
But the rumors, if anything, are amusing.
Siemens took a huge calculated risk and, in this case, was a major financial mistake. The CEO's who've come and gone knew this.
Even MR knows he's the current patsy and fall guy for HR.
The opportunity for DX to pick itself up and fight the competition came and went when they failed to cut the division in half and closeout instruments no longer in demand.
Well, shareholders had made Siemens lack of stability and future course known to Loescher a few days ago.
Once again he reiterated on a 2year shutdown of lackluster divisions. Rhetoric? Well, maybe. But you can't argue about the billions lost over the past 6 years just in the DX Division. The longer they do nothing the faster customers bail to other competitors. We've seen this happen so many times at Tarrytown over the past decade. It's like watching a huge company like Kodak go under. A giant in its time. Well, our turn now.

That's why is said it was a BIG IF. I see occasional posts on various Siemens thread that allude to something called Trinidad. It is being worked on at multiple sites if you believe what is being posted here. If it is true, it would be a logical guess (not fact) that the chemistry side of the system will be done by the old Dade team and the immuno side done in Tarrytown. How and where it will be put together is not clear. There have been a few posts here that suggest that communication and coordination among the various sites is not as smooth as some would like it to be. So we are left with a couple of possibilities:

There is no such system being developed and it is just a rumour being spread by Siemens to let everyone know they are committed to the future in a big way and not to just adding a few bells and whistles to Centaur and Vista. This option is seriously flawed unless Siemens can find a way to make their old products appear to be new and not just upgrades and customers are still expecting something new in the future. But it is, nonetheless a possibility, especially given some of the other strange things Siemens management has managed to do at or to DX.

There is such a system being developed and it's being kept extremely quiet. Siemens might actually have learned that the system has to really be ready to work full time in a lab, with all features and methods operational and little or no service required before launching. If this were the case, they would really want to know the system is working well with no major problems or long lists of unaddressed action items before announcing the system publically for fear of another embarassment like Vista (fortunately, no one even remembers the Advia IMS). Under this scenario, a real launch shortly after announcement might be possible and would be a big surprise to the competition. I like this scenario better because it fits in with Siemens' ego a vanity. They want to show the world the first Siemens designed and developed system. They want to show how Siemens adds value in both how they develop new products and the products themselves. They do not just want to be known as the salesmen of other company's products. And keeping it under wraps for as long as possible, and being able to launch it shortly after introduction, giving the competition little or no time to react, would really do it for their vanity.

Neither possibility is a rumour itself as far as I am concerned, but merely a couple of possibilities that seem to be consistent with what others have posted. There may be other models that are consistent with what little we know on the subject of a new system under development. I just post these for consideration and other discussion.

But if it keeps DX going until the new system comes out, and if (BIG IF) the new system is a winner, then everyone comes out smelling like a rose.
END QUOTE

There is no new system. The only thing your nose is smelling is garbage.
Only thing being worked on are cosmetic upgrades to current line of platforms (Vista & Centaur).
No secret outsourced labs working on anything new. Besides, what am embarrassment that would be for Siemens (already added to the embarrassment of its DX Division).
...and of course we never landed on the moon, Roswell occupants ain't from here and DX will, once again, be #1 in 5 years.
I'm truly amazed at how naive and ignorant some of you are.
DX will keep tredding water until Siemens finally cuts, sells off or just shutsdown low performing product lines.
The customers already lost will not be coming back regardless.
This is business, not wishful thinking.
Anyone and everyone at Tarrytown already knows this.

Ouch! Even carps feel pain.

If you think for the past five, six years Siemens could hire enough new "talents" to replace old ones to develop new system,

well, there's saying, 1st tier work for Pharma, 2nd for CRO, 3rd for DX, then the bottom feeders willing to work for Siemens DX

Children, children, play nicely. You are both correct.

The numbers were good and that's what what PL and the board want to see. Just the bottom line. They may talk about long term stuff, but they live and die by the short term numbers no matter how they are achieved and against what standard they are held. If it means dumping systems in China, that's just a detail and, most likely, a short term 'fix'. But if it keeps DX going until the new system comes out, and if (BIG IF) the new system is a winner, then everyone comes out smelling like a rose. As long as the numbers meet or exceed expectations (however they are set), it's hard to argue with success.

Debating the meaning of quarter to quarter, or even yearly, results is fun to observe in the short run, but the bottom line for Siemens DX remains with the success their new system. That's the big picture.

"Stong" is correct. Love your spelling, intentional or not.

A strong quarter? Really? On what planet?
You must not be a big shareholder considering at the last shareholders meeting they, including analysts, clubbered Loescher and Siemens for not knowing what in blazes they're doing.
Strong quarter? After 7 years they haven't even recouped their initial investment of purchasing all three companies and continue spending and losing billions on the worst failed Integration in the industry.
Strong quarter? Having an Agenda 2013 Garage Sale to dump instruments on the Chinese!
Either you're management or a silly employee who just hasn't a clue as to what will happen next.
In fact, keep your head in the sand. This way when it all hits the fan you can just tell everyone,"DUH, didn't see that coming".

Siemens management incompetency the lay off is in your steps

DX .........another stong Q1

'To the guys below who just can't help but talk about politics, you know which thread you belong, just go and make dumps there.'

Listen Mr. pretend moderator, I'll post whatever I want wherever I want. Although you do sound VERY important and self serving.

There really is nothing to brag about. Chinese are still in the phase of spending money unwisely, like high-speed railway. If you can't even get high growth in China, you better sell your company to the Chinese.

To the guys below who just can't help but talk about politics, you know which thread you belong, just go and make dumps there.

Here's Peter Loescher's only mention of Diagnostics from the Earnings Conference Call Transcript

Main revenue growth driver was, again, China with a double-digit increase. Healthcare profitability saw a substantial improvement to underlying 16.8%, led by strong earnings from both the imaging and diagnostics business, both benefiting from a favorable business mix.Furthermore, Healthcare's cost position is improving from continued progress in executing Agenda 2013.

(emphasis mine)
I am of the opinion, the less they talk about DX, the better. Out of the spotlight, if you will.

Excuse me, but I still have some friends who work for Siemens. We can all have our own personal views about how well Siemens is doing and what the future holds for Siemens DX. This is the American way. We can have reasonable, mature discussions of these and other issues.

But to compare Siemens employees to Republicans is simply out of bounds. No one has attacked you in such a nasty way. No one has used ethnic or religious slurs against you, have they? And yet you take it upon yourself to be completely nasty by using the "R"-word. It seems that some reconsideration and a full apology are warranted at this point.

---- a REAL American who can't stand watching the Republican zealots do to American what their more famous forerunner zealots did to Jerusalem in 66-70 ACE.

siemens employees are like republicans. Revisionist history and a way of looking at the world that is not shared by others. I have never seen such a large flock of sheep that will swallow everything the management team says and love it.

Why some of you just can't stand the real good news about DX. It pays for your living and even give you package if let you go. But apparently it's still not doing enough for you, so every single day you can't wait for DX to die. Guess what, DX may live, literally, longer than you. You can leave for somewhere else or die first, either way DX get over you.
END QUOTE

You evidently hadn't read yesterdays article in Wall Street Journal about how "bad" Siemens is doing. No Leadership, No plan, No life. Loescher got creamed at shareholders meeting.
DX will not die but it will get a major slimming makeover...and quote soon.

'If you compare the leadership team now vs five, six years ago, I think most of people would agree that it's getting much worse, in terms of experience and expertise specific to DX industry.'

There is no leadership.Looking at the leadership team is like looking at a car full of clowns. You have incompetent a kissers and they follow the gospel of Mikey, a noted dx expert.

If you compare the leadership team now vs five, six years ago, I think most of people would agree that it's getting much worse, in terms of experience and expertise specific to DX industry.

Now to expect these filtered-down leaders to come up with a great plan and make a No.1 instrument out of nowhere in no time, either it's a joke or they got god's bless.

Exactly. The standard in the industry is 2-3 years from 'introduction' at AACC until delivery of the first operational systems for commercial use.

I simply offered the possibility that Siemens might choose to be different and not show the system until it is very close to being available to actually report out patient results. It might be a way of setting Siemens aside as something new and special in DX, which could attract more customer interest. I am not aware of any competitive or financial advantage to introducing systems 2-3 before they are ready for sale. The old mantra is to introduce systems early so that some customers will hold off on a purchase until your system is ready. This may have worked in the old days, but customers are wise to the tactic now and know better than to hold off for 3 years when they are promised a system will be available in 6 months (a frequent claim made when systems are first shown). Imagine the credibility a company might gain if they could actually deliver on such a promise. This is not a likely scenario, but it is a possibility and if this is the Siemens strategy, they could have a new system in 2 years or so ... of course, assuming it works !!

Given Siemens track record to date in DX, one can wonder if they actually understand what it means for a new system to 'work'.

"Keep your eyes on meetings like the AACC. That's where these things tend to be introduced."

AACC is where the mock-up boxes are shown in bright light and potential customers are being told of a pending release.....year after year.

Be it 2-3 years or 4-5 years, the point remains the same. The new system must be good and not suffer from any significant deficiencies. There can be no 'we will fix this or that after launch' issues. The question is not what do Abbott or Roche or Beckman/Danaher have. They are not perceived by customers as being vendors of old, tired, worn out systmes as is Siemens. They are not quite on the defensive as is Siemens. So basically, Siemens has all their eggs in one basket. In the interim, bet it 2 years or 5, Siemens has to find a way to maintain a minimum revenue stream from its existing products. This is no small challenge since they still have to fix problems with Immulite reagent manufacturings and make peace with the FDA which involves some basic changes to their quality system.

Can Siemens actually release their new system in 2 years? If they do, it will be a major achievement in terms of maintaining secrecy about a new product more than anything else. If one assumes that the R&D effort is done well and the system doesn't run into all sorts of fire fighting issues, it could conceivably be launched in less than a year following its announcement. The FDA 'approval' takes 90 days or less (except for any PMA methods). Beta testing can be carried out in 6 months or less, assuming the system is really ready to go. This would actually be the right way to do things (e.g., have the system fully ready and internally tested prior to beta testing) and would be a big surprise to the competition.

Only the few who are actually working on the new system seem to know where it is in the development cycle. Even internally, many people know little of the new system's status. So either there is nothing much to talk about yet and the system is more like 5 years away, or Siemens internal security is amazing and Siemens will create an huge splash when they announce the system.

Keep your eyes on meetings like the AACC. That's where these things tend to be introduced.

'"As I've noted on other threads this new system to replace Vista is at least 4-5 years out."

yet another reason not to believe things written on biofind.'

Explain your snide comment.
Since it is not close to even beta testing, these things take time.
You can follow the company line or look at realistic timeframes.
While you may want to believe this isn't true, the reality is you can't just introduce a new analyzer w/out going through all kinds of challenges, including the FDA. These all take time, something you and siemens don't have much of.

"Siemens has a pretty old product line"

What exactly is new from Roche or Abbott?

"As I've noted on other threads this new system to replace Vista is at least 4-5 years out."

yet another reason not to believe things written on biofind.

We received an email yesterday and it wasn't doom and gloom like the last few years in regard to Q1.

As I've noted on other threads this new system to replace Vista is at least 4-5 years out.
Can they last that long or will this new system be introduced in 5 years to customers that want nothing to do with siemens.

It is a bit pointless to argue over last year's results or this coming year's results when it comes to the survival of Siemens DX. I think everyone would agree that as of today, Siemens has a pretty old product line. Rumor here and elsewhere has it that Siemens is working on a new system, although they don't seem to be talking about it much, if at all, officially. Siemens basically has one shot at making DX work in the long run and that is to develop a truly successful system. A 'me-too' product with a few bells and whistles, but also a few deficiencies here and there just won't do. In order to keep going, the new system will have to be a magnet to customers and not something Siemens sales people have to work hard to sell, and offer discounts early into launch. Siemens has already had a couple of bad experiences with systems that weren't ready for routine use (Advia IMS and Vista). If Siemens makes the same mistakes with their own system, it is hard to see how DX survives regardless of what they did last year.

Why some of you just can't stand the real good news about DX. It pays for your living and even give you package if let you go. But apparently it's still not doing enough for you, so every single day you can't wait for DX to die. Guess what, DX may live, literally, longer than you. You can leave for somewhere else or die first, either way DX get over you.

With a 9% bonus figure this year I'd say DX has to get a mention

Ask yourself this: If DX is doing so well then why did all US empoyee's lose 6 months merit raise?
What specific parts of DX are doing well? Centaur? Vista? Immulite?
If they're talking Healthcare in general then IMAGING is the only cash cow. Agenda 2013 is a garage sale of sorts. Dump as much as you can and move on. Every company has their own version of it.
Don't believe the hype. DX is down billions from original expectations set 6-8years ago.
Would Siemens, given what it knows today, purchase all three company's again? Of course not.

Come on! What do you want them to say? Even if the company is teetering on disaster the annual report/meeting is always full of sunshine. Dig deeper.

See for yourself:
http://www.siemens.com/investor/pool/en/investor_relations/financial_pub...

DX did get mentioned - in a very positive light. Seems selling to emerging markets (i.e. China) saved their bacon. DX is at least leveraging the power of a global conglomerate, with its sales and distribution channels! Healthcare continues to be the "star" of Siemens, with it's increased return on investment, and was featured prominently in the presentation. Agenda 2013 seems to be working purely from numbers point of view!