Anyone who expresses a more definitive response to the question is claiming access to knowledge not based on empirical foundations. This remarkably persistent way of thinking, common to most religions and some branches of philosophy, has failed badly in past efforts to understand, and thereby predict the operations of the universe and our place within it.

To assert that the universe has a purpose implies the universe has intent. And intent implies a desired outcome. But who would do the desiring? And what would a desired outcome be? That carbon-based life is inevitable? Or that sentient primates are life's neurological pinnacle? Are answers to these questions even possible without expressing a profound bias of human sentiment? Of course humans were not around to ask these questions for 99.9999% of cosmic history. So if the purpose of the universe was to create humans then the cosmos was embarrassingly inefficient about it.

And if a further purpose of the universe was to create a fertile cradle for life, then our cosmic environment has got an odd way of showing it. Life on Earth, during more than 3.5 billion years of existence, has been persistently assaulted by natural sources of mayhem, death, and destruction. Ecological devastation exacted by volcanoes, climate change, earthquakes, tsunamis, storms, pestilence, and especially killer asteroids have left extinct 99.9% of all species that have ever lived here.

How about human life itself? If you are religious, you might declare that the purpose of life is to serve God. But if you're one of the 100 billion bacteria living and working in a single centimeter of our lower intestine (rivaling, by the way, the total number of humans who have ever been born) you would give an entirely different answer. You might instead say that the purpose of human life is to provide you with a dark, but idyllic, anaerobic habitat of fecal matter.

So in the absence of human hubris, and after we filter out the delusional assessments it promotes within us, the universe looks more and more random. Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as other events that would just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible, to assert. So while I cannot claim to know for sure whether or not the universe has a purpose, the case against it is strong, and visible to anyone who sees the universe as it is rather than as they wish it to be.

- Neil deGrasse Tyson

An astrophysicist and the Director of New York City's Hayden Planetarium.

Well, if you want to play that game, I'm in.

But first tell me your definition of the word 'purpose'. Then let me know if you know what a 'sophist' is.

Thank you.

I like all the posts here in this thread. But I think we should go further beyond human race and asked ourselves this question:

Does the universe have a purpose?

Hey, I have to ask you something that really isn't political. It sounds like you run a small company and I was wondering if you produce a product or provide a service or a combination of both?

Yep. Republicans get the same thing if they can ever win an election again. Who needs the drama of something that is ultimtely inevitable?

You really need to see a physician about the insect in your rectum. Hate to break it to you, but the debt limit was raised many times under your 'god', Reagan.

And the idiocy continues. The only question is whether you can top the idiocy you have already shown us.

Oh, and YAWN !!!!! How about some real positive ideas or are you also against taxing your brain?

From A CNBC Nov.30, 2012 article;

"Mr. Geithner proposed permanently ending Congressional purview over the federal borrowing limit....."

Of course the proposal came directly from Geitner's boss, Owebama.
Now everyone out there, does giving Owebama and the Dem's authority to increase the debt limit anytime they please, scare the living daylights out of you? The audacity to even ask for this unmitigated power is telling, isn't it?

"You want me on your side..."

It was in the context of admiration for your energy, something our side admittedly could use, but you really didn't think I meant "you" literally? That obviously is like trying to mix water with oil, just doesn't work. Not that we even thought you would even think that way so I was a bit taken back by this comment.

Yawn !

seriously, it's getting bored... Callaway Christmas Lights may release your intense souls.

"Republicans continue their attitudes towards women, blacks, immigrants (legal ones)......"

So I guess this means that you felt both Bush administrations were hostile to Mexicans?

I was just stating obvious facts, and no, this time I am serious.

OK. I surrender. When you wish to discuss issues in an intelligent manner let us know.

"not polical rants. crappy biotech, biopharma , low quality--
just ask the victims of the framingham compounding joke."

Totally irrelevant to Siemens.
Pretty irrelevant to recent posts here.
Final proof that China is taking over America and making their standards ours.

So how is everyone's Mandarin?

There are several threads that deal with Siemens and layoffs. As for this thread, the reality is that it has been usurped for the purpose of political discussion and, despite pleas to stop, it is unlikely to do so.

The good news is that if anything relevant to Siemens or layoff is posted here, you can be assured it will appear on the other threads as well. You won't miss a thing by not visiting this thread and you won't get annoyed or bored by the usurpers.

not polical rants. crappy biotech, biopharma , low quality--
just ask the victims of the framingham compounding joke.

any layoffs yet ?

Can you guys take your political rants elsewere? The American system is so crazy anyway whoever you vote for, if you actually do.

"I know you won't believe this, but to the lib guy I really do admire your spunk; you have great convictions. I just wish you were on our side to energize the oftentimes tired conservative base. I guess too many of us are just getting old."

You want me on your side? I've offered you countless opportunities to convert me. Just explain how raising taxes will increase unemployment and vice versa. A simple step by step explanation including realistic examples would go a long way to helping me understand your position. I still would be reluctant to join you as long as Republicans continue their attitudes towards women, blacks, immigrants (legal ones), the less fortunate (not all are 'takers' by choice), and other minority groups. They will also have to drop all of their religious nonsense; it should have no place in politics. I find that most conservatives will shy away from many of these issues, but won't come out with a simple declarative statement of repudiation and a demand to change course on the social issues.

In contrast, I cannot make the same offer to you. I do not wish for you to join my side or position since I consider myself to be a moderate and have quite a few problems with some of the extreme positions taken by those on the left. We already have enough spokesmen for liberal or moderate causes who make statements without thinking first or ones that have no basis in fact. They just get ridiculed and laughed at and wind up hurting the cause. This is my biggest problem with you as well and I would hate to add one more person to my causes (better word than 'side') who just says things off the top of his head or quotes party dogma without understanding it's meaning or intent.

I am equally annoyed at little kids, like first graders, who try to recite the Pledge of Allegiance or the National Anthem and get it all messed up and when you ask them what it means, they shrub their shoulders and giggle. At least I was fortunate enough to have a first grade teacher who basically went over the Pledge word by word in terms that a 6 year old could understand before the actual words were drilled into my head. Teaching the other way is relatively harmless in itself, but is a symptom of the underlying problem of getting kids into the habit of just repeating what they are told with no understanding. They grow up to be adults who do the same thing. And as I'm sure you have guessed by now, I am not into herd mentality. In case you haven't noticed, virtually all of my proposals are my own and not a parroting of some liberal-commie government or party official. I can assure you that many of my positions piss off my friends on the left as much as they do to you.

You may have made all those posts as a joke or to get my juices flowing, but they come from an underlying belief and I find that very disturbing. So please, stay in your party, try to sell me if you can, but don't waste your time trying to lump me in with those you despise or to provoke me with more idiocy. It does nothing to add to a mature conversation on important issues. There is no reason for us to act like Congressmen ... we should be alot better than that !!!

So you really thing that black gang memebers get involved in politics? If so, you're dumber than I thought.

While it's true that the Klan racists are in the Republican party, it is also true that the Far, far more numerous Black gang members are in your party. And ya know what? The brothers cause far, far, far more pain and problems for White people than the Klansmen do for Black folk. There just are not enough of the really bad Klan members to do much damage; they number in the few hundreds or in the low 1,000's. But can you give me an honest estimate of how many nasty Black gang members there are? Tens of thousands? 100's of thousands? Do not get into a numbers game with who has the worst collection of bad folks because we all know what the numbers will tell.

" and it is true that the party has Klan members so even the name is indeed quite apt"

A point is awarded here for honesty. And people are partially defined by the company they keep. I like that RepubliKlan name. It's the latest take on '(White) Boys in the Hood'.

No deal. RepubliKlansmen are responsible for far more of today's debt and deficit than Democrats. Two unjustified and unbalanced tax cuts, two unpaid for wars, and an unfunded Medicare Part D and all during the six years when you controlled everything. All of these were monkeys on the back of the current and future Presidents. It's time for the RepubliKlansmen to take some responsibility for the mess they created. They created the bulk of our debt and now want to blame it on others. Y'all have too much guilt to be casting stones at others.

"The Republican Party, the party of Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan has been renamed to more accurately reflect its modern image. Henceforth, the Grand Old Party will be known as the RepubliKlan Party ........"

Quite distinguished company I would say, and it is true that the party has Klan members so even the name is indeed quite apt, though a bit cheesy don't you think? Or maybe not...........as long as you can agree that we can clall the Dem's the Deficitcrats..................deal?

Ha! This is indeed entertaining if not a barrel of monkey's....................and noooo, this is not a racial comment, at least not any more than your new name for the Republicans.

NEWSFLASH !!!!

The Republican Party, the party of Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan has been renamed to more accurately reflect its modern image. Henceforth, the Grand Old Party will be known as the RepubliKlan Party and it's members and adherents will be referred to as RepubliKlansmen.

It is eaay to have spunk and enthusiasm for a point of view when yuou actually understand why you believe what you believe and when you have facts and data to rationalize your belief. It is easy to get tired and frustrated when your beliefs are nothing more than repeating positions and talking points that you do not really undertand and cannot defend or justify based on reality. I think this partially explains why so many on the right behave like angry bitter old men who feel like they are under seige and weaponless when it comes to explaining and justifying their positions.

The Believer and the Skeptic:

Skeptic: Is there a God?
Believer: Of course there is.
Skeptic: How do you know?
Believer: I read it in the Bible.
Skeptic: Who wrote the Bible?
Believer: God did.

Kind of hard to argue with logic like that. Does the above thought pattern sound familiar?

The guy who posted earlier was correct; I posted these three to get those angry responses from the libtard, since he kept on going off from my other serious posts. But he didn't really go off on these three for whatever reason. I also posted the big liberal vs conservative lists to give us a repreve from all the vitriol, and I'm glad at least one guy admitted getting a kick out of it.

I know you won't believe this, but to the lib guy I really do admire your spunk; you have great convictions. I just wish you were on our side to energize the oftentimes tired conservative base. I guess too many of us are just getting old.

Part III
I may have a solution also for some of the imported oil we seem so unable to do without. A lot of this oil is used to fire up electric generating plants across the country. That is a lot of oil.
About 1/3 of all American adults are obese. That means somewhere around 20-75 million adults walking around obese. I'm not advocating sacrificing them, but perhaps when they pass away we can boil their carcasses much as they used to render whale meat for the fat content. Oil floats to the top to be easily skimmed off for fuel. We could do this with fat people's carcasses and use the oil to fire up electrical plants. That may save millions spent for imported oil, and would go a long way towards further reducing the deficit.

Part II
I also have a very efficient and cost effective way to decrease the military budget yet not decrease or maybe if we are lucky, even increase the effectiveness of our long range weapons. A second benefit would be to streamline the costs that burden Medicare and health care costs in general in this country.
I think all men and women over the age of 66 should be drafted, no exceptons granted, except of course for the decreased level of danger peace time may grace on the fortunate ones. Notice how this precise age eliminates the payments for SS that this group would have just begun to be qualified for. This manditory military service would be for a special division dedicated to piloting all current forms of self guided missle systems. Since their age precludes any significant loss of life's pleasures and accomplishments, these soldiers can sacrafice their lives to a much needed and honorable cause. Cruise missles cost about a million dollars each, and a live pilot brings smarter and better adaptability if the strike dynamics should change. Regardless they can guide the weapon directly onto targets and even make changes seconds before a strike actually hits its target. We can compensate the families of these heroic soldiers with a significant reward if the soldier hit his target perfectly.

Part I
I think anyone on welfare for more than 6 months should be eliminated from circulation. Within 6 months 90% of the entitlement problem would then be taken care of. The kids can go the orphanage route, and within one generation the problem is fixed. Who else after seeing what happened to these long termer's would try and collect welfare for that long? I think I should run for president.

I say the list is right on!!

I never realized a$$holes could multiply this fast. Must be a new, virulent strain.

LOL; Ha, Ha, Ha this is all so very entertaining!

Fiscal cliff: I do not understand what all the hype is about.. The USA is well past the stage of getting back to a balanced budget, no less even paying off our debts. I have given up worrying about the next generation. I will be pushing up daisies by then.

I feel very lucky to have been born in the late 40's and enjoying the 50's when sex was dirty and the air was clean.

For any youngster reading these posts, God help you 25 years from now. Ooh wait, I am not supposed to say God. The Democrats have outlawed that word, but Mohamed is OK, actually preferred now.

Good luck and God bless ,,,, there I go saying that politically incorrect 3 letter word again.

No. The dude is a loser. He's even being rejected by his own kind now. His list is not a joke. It is consistent with everything else he has posted here. It just makes his bigotry and self-centered nature more concise and obvious.

It will be fun to watch him trying to squirm out of this one though ... about the only reason now to even read what he posts. The rest belongs on a manure pile.

I have to admit, I was LOL for a few minutes reading the list. Com'on guy's it was funny wasn't it? He was just joking and coming here looking for Siemens news as a depressed DX employee, it was good for a laugh, and I'm a liberal even though I am quite long in the tooth.

The more you post here, the more I am beginning to believe that I am wasting my time even acknowledging the existence of a life form like you

Does that mean the dude wins?

As a lifelong staunch Republican, I find this list offensive. I hope every Republican will repudiate this kind of bigotry and stupidity. This is now what we are about. It is the kind of smallmindedness we are trying to fight.

Since you have labeled me a "generalizer" I'll take it to task. I know no list can ever be absolute but what label, liberal or conservative, would you apply to these two generalized lists?

Are you serious or is this list a sick joke? Did the government stop funding your former mental institution or are you Stephen Colbert? Whichever, you are a complete sicko.

I'd call it a list made up by someone who is only capable of counting up to '2'.

Assuming that everyone falls into just two categories is sheer idiocy. Not right, not left, just dumb. Note that this is directed at you individually and not whatever group or groups you are part of (or of which you are a part, if grammar matters).

I think you are just a bitter old man who uses Republican philosophy for the sole purpose of protecting your wealth and that you could care less about any of your fellow human beings, despite your protestations to the contrary. You are probably just pissed that there is no government program to help those like you with the limited abilities of those afflicted with pure-black-white syndrome.

The more you post here, the more I am beginning to believe that I am wasting my time even acknowledging the existence of a life form like you that challenges my personal dignity every time I respond to you. I am finding that coming down to your level is becoming increasingly tedious and simply not worth the time. You are just filled with anger and hatred and have nothing positive to offer. Your latest 'list' of good guys and bad guys just confirms my opinion of you as a mental lightweight.

Since you have labeled me a "generalizer" I'll take it to task. I know no list can ever be absolute but what label, liberal or conservative, would you apply to these two generalized lists?

1. criminals, eco terrorists, actors, athletes, edjumicators, lifelong welfare recipients, illegal immigrants, lawyers, unions, public sector employees, section 8 enrollees, food stamp recipients, SPCA, Muslims, drug dealers, pimps, directors, singers, dancers, marijuana growers, DMV, US postal service, friends of nature, kids, young adults, hamburger flippers, uninsured (health), gays, those infected w/ AIDS, record company executives, rap "artists", Screen Writers Guild, PETA, 99% of Blacks, 75% Hispanics, 60% Asians, White trailer trash, homeless, solar panel companies, windmill (electric generating) companies, Ebony magazine, Slam magazine, those whose music makes their car shake, those who party w/ loud music till 3:00 AM on tuesday nights, drinkers, smokers, husbands who are not faithful, un-employed, those w/o college degrees, HS drop outs, average to below average IQ, alcoholics, those who can dance, those who do not speak clear and understandable English that actually makes sense, those who do not weed their lawn, those who do not mow their lawn, those who do have a car parked on their lawn, those who's cars all run with smoke, those who do not understand basic algebra, those who do not read past the 10 grade level, those who have a gun illegally in their car, those who have assaulted someone, those wha are full of anger all the time, those who retire broke

2. Wall Street, CEO's of major companies, older folks, Bankers, small business owners, those who pay the max fed income tax, those affected by AMT, those who have heath insurance and pay for it themselves, law abiding citizens who have never been arrested, non-drinkers, non-smokers, non HIV infected, husbands who are faitful, self employed, those w/ college degree, HS grads, average to above average IQ, sober individuals, those who cannot dance, those who speak clear and understandable English that actually makes sense, those who weed their lawn, those who mow their lawn, those who do not have a car parked on their lawn, those who's cars all run w/o smoke, those who understand basic algebra, those who read past the 10 grade level, NRA, those who have a gun legally in their house, those retiring financially secure

you guys spend so much time chasing your tails to nowhere

Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black, I'd say, and no this is not a racist comment.

To the rest of the world Americans are a mystery, you LOVE to over-complicate things - examples:

Space shuttle, something always broke so you put more backups on. Now abandoned. The simple Russian rockets are still going.

Politics, it goes round and round in layers of circus pointlessly and in the end the guy with the most money and the biggest backers gets in regardless.

Companies, do you really need a vice president of photocopier paper supply acquisition (the guy phones Staples!) plus his European counterpart - all under the VP of global corporate logistics and his team.

Software, MS Windows too complicated, so make it more complicated to fix the problems, then need bigger computers to run it and round and round it goes. Fortunately the Chinese wrote IOS for you to make a simpler OS (you don't really think it was written in USA did you?)

Sport, for God's sake just play the game! every 5 minutes all your sports have to stop to swap the team, review the video, get the stats and ball velocity data dull city!

Healthcare, so layered it costs an inconceivable amount, lots of people make a lot of cash and a lot of people still don't get well.

Road system, who wants to know all those silly numbers - just put some signs up of names the major places so you know which way your heading.

Don't get me wrong, I love the good old USA but you guys spend so much time chasing your tails to nowhere, you need to reboot some of your processes big time.

Another Republican voice now.

Priceless!!

*Shakes head*

Pathetic. Useless. But thank you for the evolution lesson. I'm impressed. Most on the right seem to deny the existence of evolution. That's one point for you, bringing your score to a grand total of ........ one point !!!

But be careful now. The creationist police will be after you and will purge you from the Republican Party. Isn't it surprising how the party that always talks about freedom and independence seems to have zero tolerance for any deviation from the party orthodoxy. That's one thing you can say for the Democrats ... there is no orthodoxy .. the party welcomes a wide variety of views which often leads to its downfall. Watching Republicans is like watching German soldiers goose-stepping in front of the Reichstag or a May Day parade in Moscow.

Republicans: We don't think. We don't have to. We know it all and can't be bothered to explain it to misguided individuals who are not part of US and who are too inferior to understand what we know to be true.

Hollywood at its best couidn't dream this stuff up. I don't understand why you are not on primetime on Comedy Central.

"You guys are just hopeless and headed the way of the dinosaurs."

Do you realize that the dinosaurs were perhaps the most successful group of large vertebrates for the entire existence of life on earth? They ruled for 10's of millions of years and may even have survived the end of the Cretaceous till today, at least in one basic format........birds.

By contrast Obama can only exist as president for a maximum of 8 years, and 1/2 the American population thinks he will have been a very unsuccessful species during that time, unlike the dinosaurs.

You guys are just hopeless and headed the way of the dinosaurs.

"Obama's proposals are measurable...."

Yeah, to the tune of a TRILLION dollars a year in red ink for the rest of his second term; these are HIS OWN estimates.

Heee, heeee, heeeeeee!

The last time we had tax simplication, the biggest part of it was cutting the number of tax brackets from around a dozen down to 4 or so. What that did is to lump the near rich, rich, and ultra-rich into one bracket. It we went back to a dozen brackets we could have 250K-500K, 500K-1MM, etc. The tax rates on the ultra-rich would be much higher which was exactly the thing that many people objected to when tax simplification occurred. Think about it in current terms. We probably would not be having this whole tax rate argument. The near rich might not need their taxes raised whereas those who can unquestionably afford it would with little objection.

But even for someone making $300K after all deductions, expenses, etc. What are we talking about here? Four cents on every dollar over $250K. Most people can handle that I would think. But let's say you are cash strapped because you overleveraged your McMansion. I'm sure there are some near rich in that situation. But should we use tax law to help out those who made really bad financial decisions? Look at it another way. Say you eat out once a week. Cut out two weeks a year. That's four percent of your total income after taxes. Finding four percent out of a budget is usually pretty simple for most people who aren't already on a very strict budget. Nonetheless, with more tax brackets, this issue would probably be a moot point.

What I still don't get, and I confess to weaknesses in much of economic theory, is why a change in personal income tax on a small business owner would affect the number of his employees. I was under the general impression that employees were hired when there is reason to believe they will add to profits (after the expense of the employee) and let go if they detract from profits. Even if the amount of the profit from an employee is less due to government taxation or regulation, the business owner is still making a profit; it's just smaller. Another way I look at it is that if a new employee costs a total of $50,000, which is a lowball number, someone would need to be taking in 1.5 million a year for the taxes to add up to 50K. (That's 1.5MM minus 250K for which there is no change times 4 %). As you can see, I can do the simple math, but I just don't see the relationship between personal tax rates and employment. I have asked many times here and from many other conservatives, and I never get an answer other than things like ... it just does.

Once again I appeal for an explanation.

If tax simplification now means eliminating preferences and readjusting rates, I'm all for that. I don't remember which Republican said this during the primary debates, but I would like nothing more than a post card sized tax return. How much did you make? This is your tax. And, yes, tax rates would be alot lower and bring in the same revenue. But tax simplification like that is unlikely to occur, and even if it did, it is really tangential to how much total revenue comes in from taxes. It may simplify the system, eliminate some unfairness, but we will still need the same amount of revenue as we would want under the current structure. Simplification would change the distribution of who pays what, but not the total and I continue to believe this means tax increases for some until convinced otherwise.

The bottom line here is that no one has yet to come up with a proposal for spending cuts that will bring the deficity down within the next generation. Even the Ryan budget has deficit expansion through something like 2030 and that would be around the time that Medicare would cease to exist or at least wind down alot. It is also when the Ryan voucher plan would kick in which most estimates I see would add about $5,000 a year to healhcare expenses for older people. And that would only get worse because of the way Ryan does COLA so each year older people would fall farther and farther down. The Romney plan was so vague that the CBO said it couldn't be 'scored'.

If we are serious about the budget and deficit, either we need a plan with spending cuts that get us into the black each year (which will probably just add much of those taxes to state and local taxes in order to maintain services) or we need to raise revenues, or a combination of both. In the absence of any credible proposal to simply cut spending, raising taxes is the only option regardless of how much you like the idea.

but simplifing the tax code would save enormous government spending.

How exactly? The whole of the IRS operations is running less than 0.4% of the federal budget. I could certainly see it saving enormous consumer spending at H&R Block.

"Do you guys write this stuff while at work? No wonder Siemens DX has "issues"..."

Of course not. I don't work for Siemens and never have. All I will say is that I have a connection to Siemens, in particular, and a more general connection to DX. On the other hand, if I did work for Siemens and was writing all of this, no one there would ever notice.

Of course taxes are going up. The Republicans know it and are resigned to that fact. They will put up their usual theatrics to please their crowd, but they don't have a choice anymore. Polls today show that roughly 2/3 of Americans want this to happen (some of those also would accept higher taxes on everyone). The whiners here can keep whining all they want; it won't change things. They fail to accept two basic realities:

1. We are at war -- an economic war. Doesn't matter how we got here as much as finding a practical solution. Since there is no credible alternative in practical terms, the only way to fight the war is to tax those who have (more than) the ability to pay.

2. This is still a government of the people. sooner or later, the people's will will be carried out by their government. A majority of Americans opposed LBJ's ramp of of the VietNam war and drove him from office. A majority of Americans were horrified by the abuses of power under the Nixon adminstration and, ultimately, forced his resignation. A majority thought Carter was a wimp and replaced him too. A majority thought GHW Bush was insensitive to a recession and sent him to retirement (a short break here to wish him a speedy recover from bronchitis). Do you get the point yet? It's not about right and left to most Americans; it's more that our government is composed of our employees and they serve at our pleasure. The debate is over; the right lost. Get over it and get out of the way of this country moving forward again. It is no so much policy, but obstruction, that will be the end of America as we know it. We didn't hire our government to act as dogs in a manger (see Aesop's fables if you don't know this one).

Obama's proposals are measurable. They will tax a very few people more. There are numbers to look at and projections that can be made from the numbers. The only ones who don't like it are the upper 2-5 % of our rich elite, plus a group of brainwashed people who keep saying that higher taxes will increase unemployment, but can't give a single reason why this will happen nor can they show from history that lower taxes lead to greater prosperity. On the other hand, we have the Republican plan ..... ummmmm ... oops, I guess they don't have a plan. Nothing to examine, nothing to debate. I don't know about you, but in my company, people like that get fired!!

It's always easy to avoid criticism when you don't have the balls to lay out your plan. And, to date, neither the Republicans here, nor those in Congress, the Republicans have clearly shown the eunuch nature of their ideas. Yeah, I getting nasty too, but after months of trying to find out what y'all want to do, I give up in frustration.

Do you guys write this stuff while at work? No wonder Siemens DX has "issues"...

"but simplifing the tax code would save enormous government spending."

Another one of your vague generalities.

How would YOU 'reform' it? What are the new numbers? How much would it do to affect the budget and deficit?

Answer: You don't know and won't know unless you take a bit of time to run some numbers. But numbers are an anathema to you.

I know many people like you who manage to BS their way through life. The are rarely 'doers' and almost never leaders. They live off of their 'charm' which doesn't work with me. I want some meat, not just your fat and bones.

You have failed in every respect in this discussion except to show your ability to put labels on thigs, generalize, and blame everything on others. And if you can't run your business when taxes go up, then I suggest you go out and get a job for minimum wage and see how the other half lives.

By the way I'll give you my prediction of whta will happen w/ the fiscal cliff nonsense. The Republicans, being as politically mindful as the Dem's, will cave and allow a tax hike on the rich. Why? It will not be a victory in conservative eyes of course, but these politicians sure do want to get re-elected, and bad news about severe cuts will surely not get them re-elected. So the Republicans will be conservatives in name only and do what is best for them......get re-elected.