wow, there's a lot of Danaher hate on this board. it's ok, they deserve it anyway

What makes you think that Werfen Group started this whole mess? It was Danaher that killed the relationship and negotiations last minute, in order to try to screw over Werfen/IL. Do you think it was Werfen's choice to have the transition period to be 7 weeks? Come on, buddy, where's your brain at?

If your argument is all money, think again. Danaher is the public company that has investors and stockholders to please from an EPS perspective. They are the ones thinking of short-term gain, slashing R&D budgets, augmenting the bottom line with Danaher Business Solutions, and firing people from customer facing departments.

It is naive, ignorant, and short-sighted to think that the only thing that Werfen gains by going direct is cost savings by "cutting out the middleman." IL will be able to be closer to the customer in terms of releasing information and providing better customer support and information. They will get a better understanding of the U.S. customers and be able to develop products better to meet the markets needs. You forget that all the Beckman Coulter representatives are trained by IL. You forget that the R&D dollars, the know-how of hemostasis products/development comes from IL.

You, sir, obviously don't work for a diagnostics company. And probably, one and the same as those snobby Danaher management folks.

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I don't know why everyone is bashing the Danaher group, instead they should be lashing out at the Werfen group for starting this whole mess. Sounds like IL is a bit greedy, thinking that they can cut out the established distribution network and go direct and save millions in middle-man distribution cost.

Werfen is really stupid thinking they can establish a US-wide sales and service group in such a short time....sounds like a lot of loss sales and customers in a relatively short period of time.

IL care about customers support. It' more that can be said about danaher. Radiometer customers saw the quality of service decrease after danaher came in. Leica customers can wait 6 months for a microscope part. Those people try to give lesson to IL.

With all beckman's problem, this is the last deception for customers

Translation.... Danaher must be stoned! LOL!!!

How can IL start up an adequate field service organization that can respond quickly for repairs, especially if they are using a third party who may not be adequately trained on the IL coag products? I can't see that they will be able to move over that many BCI field support engineers to adequately cover the entire US.

I guess for those areas where IL coag installations is rare, you will probably have difficulty obtaining field service. With BCI they had heme and some Chem FSE's cross trained on the Coag instruments.

"DHR ROCKS!"

I wouldn't go that far.

Werfen is just a bunch of loosers.

DHR ROCKS!

I don't know why everyone is bashing the Danaher group, instead they should be lashing out at the Werfen group for starting this whole mess. Sounds like IL is a bit greedy, thinking that they can cut out the established distribution network and go direct and save millions in middle-man distribution cost.

Werfen is really stupid thinking they can establish a US-wide sales and service group in such a short time....sounds like a lot of loss sales and customers in a relatively short period of time.

This decision does not surprise me. Danaher is only bad news for the diagnostics industry.

Wonder if IL is planing to launch the ILAB, Taurus and Venus WW with the split?

If you thought SG bungled the business, DHR is accelerating that process at an alarming rate. Is it my imagination or DHR thrives on crisis mgmt? Everything they've done from the start involves dropping everything at the last minute to fix the latest mgmt disaster. Then we hear after mgmt knew about it for 6 months and did NOTHING during that time to prepare their customers for it. Where do these guys get their businee degree? Disneyland?

I think the facts speak for themselves. IL puts about spends 10-11% of their revenue back into R&D for new products, test kits, technology or product enhAncements to keep the business healthy for years to come. DHR spends about 6% on R&D, milks the business and uses the profits for buying up more companies. R&D grinds to a halt so the competitors leap ahead and business drops along with profitability. Who wants to pay 2012 prices for a year 2000 Chevette? They then cherry pick to keep the biggest and most profitable accounts while looking for another victim to fill the lack or R&D gap. I'm not surprised IL wouldn' t sell. The cultures dont match. Plus, Look at how much market share they have taken from Radiometer at a much better margin!

so when can i buy my new IL ACL TOP 300 CTS? I want it from IL, not Beckman Coulter.

Danaher is stupid:

1) Shooting themselves in the foot.
2) Screwing over their customers.
3) Screwing over their own Beckman Coulter employees.
4) Screwing over their long-time business partner.

Need I say more?

This is great news! IL is a great company and would look forward to working with them. We will miss our Beckman Coulter reps though!

I think Danaher management needs to be removed for what they are doing! Evil empire much?!

Bad deal for Customers all round. Lose - Lose for BC and IL.

1. Now the Lab and Purchasing has to deal with 2 field sales reps, 2 inside sales depts., 2 distribution networks, 2 price lists, 2 service contracts.

2. Now BC has a whole bunch of cross trained service reps with no coag. to service. Hmmmmmm ... how to cover their costs with reduced service revenue? Reduce staff and/or increase Service Contracts prices. Decrease in service quality for both Coagulation and Hematology will surely happen.

3. IL direct will in no way be able to cover the Customers like BC simply because of less boots on the ground. Result reduced problem handling by the field. Increase frustration for the Customer.

4. Same for BC Sales. Less in field means less after Sales Support for the BC Customers.

The positive for Danaher is that they are now well positioned to sell off the Hematology part of the business because the IL anchor has been removed. Maybe some of the old Coulter Electronics guys should put in a bid. They knew what taking care of the Customer and getting market share was all about.

"If I were Danaher, I would purchase IL after they botched the transition to direct sales...perhaps their value will drop to an affordable price.

Unfortunately, it will take several years to gain back jilted customers."

Are you dense? Werfen is a private company. And why would customer's be "jilted"?

Your logic does not make sense. IL's business is largest outside the U.S.

Allow me to set the record straight.

With regards to North America, it was Werfen/IL's intent to extend the agreement until Dec 31, 2012, in order to ensure a smooth transition of customers as well as appropriate human resources to place the customer first. Werfen/IL is a company that has always placed its customers and ultimately patients at the top and has always done the right thing. This is clear in all countries that Werfen/IL operates as well as its Critical Care business in the U.S./Canada.

In speaking with both IL and Beckman Coulter employees, it is 100% clear that the party that is acting unprofessional is the management at Danaher. Given that Danaher competes with Werfen in other areas (namely Critical Care, Radiometer), it is clear that this is the issue. Please use some logic and reason, why would IL want to make such a short transition period? It is clear that Danaher pulled the plug last minute to screw over IL. What a childish and immature move.

IL's current focus is on providing field service, support, and applications support. On the bottom of its list is sales. These priorities show that IL is committed to serving the customer first, rather than feeding their top line and Werfen's bottom line.

Furthermore, IL is currently #2 in the U.S. market, second only to Siemens, which is still selling the CA-1500 from the 1990s and is unable to even put the CS-2000i through the FDA despite 4 years of trying and rejection!

It is clear that with regards to product, IL is the innovator and has the best hemostasis products on the market with the ACL TOP family and the HemosIL reagents line. Yes, you are right in saying that IL will take a hit in market share over the next few years, but this is temporary and short-term. In the long-term, IL will soon become market leader within the U.S., China, and Australia/New Zealand... similar to what has happened globally.

IL is currently #1 in market share globally for hemostasis. It is a shame that Beckman Coulter has not been able to allow them to be leader in the U.S., where IL is headquartered!

If I were Danaher, I would purchase IL after they botched the transition to direct sales...perhaps their value will drop to an affordable price.

Unfortunately, it will take several years to gain back jilted customers.

Any news about this week's meeting?

X-Werfen. The end of this strategic alliance is the natural consequence of the previous acquisition of BCI by Danaher. Until that event both companies had complementary lines of products. Danaher is a direct competitor of Werfen group in other laboratory disciplines: blood-gases and immunology (e.g. DHR owns Radiometer). Probably DHR had long-term plans to absorb Werfen to consolidate a first-division instrumentation group. However, Werfen is a non-public family-owned company that is not interested in selling.

I think the question you need to ask as a customer is given how irresponsible DHR/BCI and IL are behaving, can I trust them to put my patients and my business ahead of their selfcenteredness now or in the future? If this is how kaotic they run this business and how they treat their business partners, will you be treated any better?

"Finally,in the middle of this week BCI and Werfen Group will meet to deal."

I hope this is true. They think about patient care, intstead of pissing at each other.

"Doable" I find curious..... Based on good rumors, my experience servicing IL coag instruments for BCI, and a bit of computational skills and (I hope) common sense, here are my thoughts and questions:

1. IL is not permitted to talk to (meaning negotiate hiring) coag-experienced field service engineers (FSE's) until June 23rd.
2. On June 23rd, IL coag instruments shall no longer be serviced by CBI FSE's.
3. Does that mean that IL is to be in a hiring frenzy from 2400 - 0600 on June 23rd?

4. IL is planning to hire some 50 to 60 experienced FSE's from BCI.
5. There are now on the order of 600 hematology FSE's at BCI and many of them are spending up to 50% of their time working on IL coag instruments. This should mean that some 200 FSE's would be required to handle the IL workload.
6. FSE's do become more efficient if they work only on one product line so fewer shall be needed. OTH, 60 FSE's shall be farther away from the customers than 600 FSE's so the mean travel time shall be much greater.

7. IL appears to be intending to rely on third-party service companies to make up the difference. I have already been interviewed by one such company. A friend has been interviewed by another.

8. Things are going to be very interesting for the customers in late June.

Finally,in the middle of this week BCI and Werfen Group will meet to deal.

This silence from both companies in Spain and Portugal about the future isn't more than deafening.

Like in the past when Siemens bought Bayer and Dade, the competition is all over the costumers trying at least causing reasonably doubt. And in countries where opportunities of big public tenders is decreasing this kind of silence specially from one of the main competitors (BCI) is great news. Possibly meaning losing some costumers.

More, if Izasa and BCI have had an agreement up already about employees staying in Izasa and moving to BCI it would be faraway more beneficial for both companies and for employees (but who cares about them) than this situation where in the end any employee wanted by Izasa can be willing to move away and vice-versa. From Izasa's side there is a clear picture about who they want to count on, leaving all the others employees with the idea "you get your payment by the end of the month from us but we don't count on you for long". In the end it means losing some costumers too.

But comparing IL task in North America to BCI in Spain and Portugal, it's clear that BCI can put up a company and supporting all BCI's costumers faster because more than a half Izasa's employees will be available.

Good luck to us.

"The plan IL is putting forth is very doable. Based on the market share, MTBF of the analyzers and mean travel time 60 seasoned Engineers could cover the workload so long as good Tech support is offered as these new engineers forge their way though the learning curve. Once the service is up to its potential and the dust settles, IL can make major headway in increased market share. This will be interesting to watch as this unfolds."

IL is rather naive to think that they will increase their market share with this rather abrupt move. I think a few ego's were ruffled between Werfen and Danaher to cause such a short notice for the dissolution of the distribtution agreement, instead of a longer transition period. IL is going to lose US marketshare in Coag big time! Each are spinning the cause; but, grow up and get back to the table to provide a better transition! Why would we stay with IL after all of this?

I guess a public flogging of Danaher and Werfen leadership is in order. I'll bring the popcorn! What a bunch of idiots!

Any new about what BCI will do in the countries where they will be the representative company in a few weeks?

And what about Italy and Austria?

Many technicians and customers are waiting for a company called Beckman Coulter to establish here (Spain and Portugal). Now there is no representation of "this brand" except Izasa (Werfen Group). And time is running over, 22 June is next month, I think there is no time to do it.

¿Could somebody say something about how that decission will affect to the spanish sales, mainteiment, technical sevices, and so on...?

The plan IL is putting forth is very doable. Based on the market share, MTBF of the analyzers and mean travel time 60 seasoned Engineers could cover the workload so long as good Tech support is offered as these new engineers forge their way though the learning curve. Once the service is up to its potential and the dust settles, IL can make major headway in increased market share. This will be interesting to watch as this unfolds.

There will be even legal issues with Health Authority if after June 22 Beckman Coulter's customers in Spain and Portugal have problems with reagents or technical services, specially with customers like big hospitals with long term contracts. ¡Both companies would get a big problem that can affect not only Spanish and Portugese but even
European Health laws!

to the commnets" I do also think it is irresponsible and arrogant of both Danaher BCI and Werfen IL to put the USA customers that have been loyal and spent money in good faith to buy their systems, to then announce that in a matter of 5 weeks all will change, but do not worry!

....... DHR knew about this for months and gave Werfen the impression they would help with a transition by extending the contract and sharing information only to abruptly end it thus forcing IL to quickly come up with a plan. Not ideal for anyone but rest assured IL will put existing customers first. Also not arrogance on IL or Beckman part and not Beckman’s fault. Lots of great people still there… blame belongs to DHR. And yes it will be OK

Interesting that you say you will not do business with Beckman Coulter as a result of this decision. How is this the fault of Beckman Coulter? After June 22 contractually they cannot support you. Their hands are tied.

It will be interesting to see in the next 6 months how many sales, support and service engineers will leave Beckman Coulter for IL. Years of unhappiness and the uncertainty for what the future holds may give enough reason to give another company a chance for greener pastures.

I do understand it is not all about the size of the country and all your points below are valid.

However I do also think it is irresponsible and arrogant of both Danaher BCI and Werfen IL to put the USA customers that have been loyal and spent money in good faith to buy their systems, to then announce that in a matter of 5 weeks all will change, but do not worry!

The problem is we have results to produce reliably for patients, every day, every hour and I do not believe the plan IL have announced is sufficient, I for one will be voting in the future with my IHN and will try not to do business with either of these companies again.

"Really it is not about size of the area to cover as it is about operational analyzers and average time between failures. Then the appropriate number of engineers can be determined.

The key word is "additional" which implies there are already engineers in place. Obviously those engineers would need to be trained on the coagulation products but once trained the bodies are in place. What then would be needed is experience to handle the more complex situations. It would not be too far of a reach to bring in some experienced engineers from overseas to assist regionally until everyone is up to speed."

Really it is not about size of the area to cover as it is about operational analyzers and average time between failures. Then the appropriate number of engineers can be determined.

The key word is "additional" which implies there are already engineers in place. Obviously those engineers would need to be trained on the coagulation products but once trained the bodies are in place. What then would be needed is experience to handle the more complex situations. It would not be too far of a reach to bring in some experienced engineers from overseas to assist regionally until everyone is up to speed.

So Mr IL USA the simple logic is then 50 new engineers / 32,5751097 means you only have 1.53491 engineers covering the whole of Italy, wow that is a great engineer with benefits!!!!!!!!!!!

"this change will cause a massive problem in service of the exsisting customer base in the USA, IL are saying they can cover the USA with 50 additional engineers!!! Do they not know this is the USA which is geographically 70 times larger than Italy!!!!"

Uh.... yes, they do understand that the US is larger than Italy, IL is located in MA, USA.

Actually,
(US)3.79 million square miles / (Italy)116 346.5 square miles = 32.5751097

IL realizes that the US is 32.5751097 times larger than Italy.

The comment about Danaher doing this to weaken Werferen is an ignorant statement as Werferen in the coagulation market is a global company positioned number one. They have the capability to manage customers needs.

Where Werferen has miscalculated is how quickly they can build up infrastructure in the North American market to properly support customers.

One can anticipate those customers will experience some sort of discomfort while IL builds itself up. How quickly that can happen everyone will have to wait and see.

Unfortunately both companies have initially become weaker with this decision.

Spain? There is not problems in Spain with IL products. The service in Spain will be the same,same engineer, same support, Werfen has his own IL service.
The problem in Spain will be the BCI workers(who are now working in Werfen).Werfen will not need this people in few weeks.
Like someone wrote in other post:
Does anyone know what will happen in Spain and Portugal? BC has no direct presence in these two markets. How will they will the maintenance of business?

"this change will cause a massive problem in service of the exsisting customer base in the USA, IL are saying they can cover the USA with 50 additional engineers!!! Do they not know this is the USA which is geographically 70 times larger than Italy!!!!"

Uh.... yes, they do understand that the US is larger than Italy, IL is located in MA, USA.

Actually,
(US)3.79 million square miles / (Italy)116 346.5 square miles = 32.5751097

IL realizes that the US is 32.5751097 times larger than Italy.

Spain?

How ever it turns out remember DHR tried to bully IL. Any resulting pain will the fault of DHR. The take away being DHR has crapped on you before and they will most likely do it again.

"Being 3rd, 4th or 5th was much more cost effective"

I am X-BCI Diagnostics. I delivered a 45 minute rock solid presentation on the significant short comings of our field support model in late 2008. After the presentation during Q&A it was apparent that majority of room concurred with my views.

A V.P. level division manager then inserted himself into the conversation and this is what came out "You have to understand that today service in America sucks. We don't need to be any better than average." He honestly believed the customer did not care.

this change will cause a massive problem in service of the exsisting customer base in the USA, IL are saying they can cover the USA with 50 additional engineers!!! Do they not know this is the USA which is geographically 70 times larger than Italy!!!! I look forward to being told that we need to wait three days for my service engineer in Texas to arrive because he is driving across the whole state, or maybe with each engineer will come his own lear jet in order to shorten response times!!! I have contacted IL and of course been reassured but honestly they do not know what they are doing.

Spain, Portugal... and what about Italy?

I was part of Coulter Electronics when Beckman purchased Coulter as a Service Engineer. Coulter was a hematology Company and a Hematology company first and foremost. Sure, Coulter dabbled in Chemistry with the DACOS and was involved in flow cyto and fine particle, but hematology was the bread and butter. Wallace believed in service and all of we service engineers were proud to be number 1 in the industry.

This all changed a couple of years after the merger. While attending a National service meeting at the Opera-land hotel in Nashville Tennessee. During this meeting the new National service director stood before this massive congregation of service personnel, both Coulter and Beckman reps and suggested that being number 1 in service was no longer important - Being 3rd, 4th or 5th was much more cost effective. Our jaws dropped as our new director made such a statement.

We were now strictly a bottom line company and a by-product of a Chemistry company - "Jack of all trades, master of none" - The goal was no longer total quality and complete customer satisfaction, more-so, just a big company who could provide good prices. The Walmart like one stop shopping laboratory company with a Blue light special 24/7.

When we (Coulter/Beckman) began the sales and service of the IL product we immediately saw not only a direct effect on our ability to provide for these customers, we also found that it was by far more difficult to maintain our current level of support for our existing hematology customers since we were all crossed trained and our instrument count increased but the head count did not.

We also experienced many supply chain problems as we were not the direct manufacture of this product. Communications failed in many times and forecasting of parts orders was missed. There also was a void of technical information as sustaining engineering was not the major concern on this product as it was on our hematology line.

In my opinion this move by IL will cause IL to flourish as all of these previously mentioned problems can be avoided if, if, the right mechanisms are put in place. Face it, for the most part Clinical diagnostics equipment technologically speaking are pretty close and all equipment IS going to have failures. Its what a company does to resolve these problems and the support they offer once the product is in place. Laboratory specialists are a thing of the past and for the most part Lab Techs are generalist. Techs are under high pressure and high stress these days and they want quality service in a reasonable amount of time. IL being under direct control should be able to do such.

Good move IL!

Here in Spain/Portugal we don´t know what BCI will do.Werfen has tried contact with BCI/DNH many times to ask about this subjet but not answer from them.

Do you think Werfen FSE's that work with BCI equipments will be absorbed by BCI? Is BCI thinking about going to Spain and Portugal on it's own?

I wish you, (folks of BEC) Good luck!.
Now is Spain time. IL/Werfen in Spain has said they don´t need all staff who work with Beckman instruments. All this workers are waiting BEC contact them in order to give them a propouse. Do you think BEC wait a long time to contact this people o BEC will prepare his own staff to work in Spain.